THUMPER;2449023 said:
You posted at the same time I did so I didn't see it when I posted mine. If I had I would have pointed out that on average OLs in the late 80s were around 40 lbs lighter than they are today. The average OL today is @310 lbs whereas in 1988 it was @270.
The "Hogs" were considered HUGE at 285 - 295 lbs back then. Our O-Line averages 320+ today and ours isn't the heaviest!
I agree that LT made it easier for others to make plays but the reverse is also true. Leonard Marshall, playing RDE (the same side as LT) had 15.5 sacks in 1985 and 12 sacks in 1986 so who helped who? As an OT you are always taught to block the inside guy first, that would be Marshall and would allow Taylor a lot more open shots at the QB with only a RB to take him on.
Taylor was a different kind of player in that era and stood out from the rest but there have been a number of similar players since then (Derrick Thomas, Kevin Greene, etc.). He was unique at the time but would not be THAT unusual today. Again, this is not to take away from how much he dominated the game but if we are comparing two players then we have to take into account what they actually contributed to each game and what the hype was. Teams didn't know how to scheme for Taylor then but they do now.
You are not really suggesting that the Bill Parcells that we had here is anything like the BP of the late 80s are you? He was an old man when we got him and played "not-to-lose" rather than playing to win like he used to do. Also, the coaching staff that Parcells had with the Giants was top-notch while ours were losers like Zimrod.
I think they made each other better. Taylor was a great player but there were a number of great players on that team. Ware is a great player but where are the other great players around him? Zach Thomas at the end of his career? Terence Newman? OK. Ellis? He's never been great IMO. Ratliff? He's becoming a force but that's really only been this season. Last year he was good but not like he is now. Spears or Canty? Please. Bradie James? Another good player but not a Carl Banks type.
Lawrence Taylor didn't have 20 sacks every year, he did it only once (20.5 in 1986). He had 15.5, 15, 13, 12, 11.5, 10.5 and that's it for his double-digit sack seasons. As I pointed out, Marshall led the team in sacks in 1985, not Taylor. The bottom line is that the other players around him DID make it easier for him to make plays. he made them better but they also made him better as well.
Very logical and good insight, greatly appreciated. I don't think any of it tips the scale in Demarcus Wares favour though. I never said LT had 20 sacks a year, maybe you just wanted to outline it though. One thing though, although the Lineman are 40 lbs bigger than yesterdays lineman on average, the players overall average 20 lbs bigger today as opposed to LT's era.
Now you do realize that Lawrence Taylor did play into the 90's and by the late 80's a lot of the OL were getting towards the 300 lb mark. Lawrence Taylor played while lineman were at the 300 lb mark for a good portion of his career. There are line today that don't average 300 lbs, not many but they exist. Now the perception is bigger is better but just because you are big doesn't mean you're a better offensive lineman depending on what system is used.
I for one believe bigger is better but Anthony Munoz who is regarded by most of the "professionals" as the best tackle to ever play the game played during LT's era and he was at 278 when he first entered the league in 1980.
LT also played in an era when Jimmy Johnson brought in the big massive O-line and actually won his last SB in 1991. 1993 was LT's last year after 12 seasons so he knows what it was like to play against o-lineman ranging from 285-310 on average. Like I said previously, 285 lb's to a 237 lb man is pretty much the equivalent ratio wise to 320 lbs to a 262 pound man. LT 237 lbs while playing, D.Ware 262 lbs.
Teams didn't know how to game plan for LT because he is the first player to play the position the way he did and you said it best, the game plans were unsuccessful against Taylor. That also has a lot to do with LT's skill level and uncontainable athleticism.
A lot of guys to come out just like LT? Wow, no way! Derrick Thomas was good, very good but he didn't dominate the league like LT did. The sacks and the stats are important but you're not holding impact on a game in high regards in any of your post.
Now we can go on and on, but everyone of my points are valid and are backed by facts as yours are. But the point of this thread is Demarcus Ware vs LT. As it stands, LT has already done it and he has done it like no other player at his position in the history of the NFL. Demarcus Ware is doing well and is a dominating player, but not like LT did. Demarcus has not won the awards, the championships, statistically hasn't reached LT, and that may happen with health and longevity, nor has Ware dominated this league like LT did regardless of era.
LT is a pioneer for a position and style of football that to this day is trying to be emulated. He played in a much more physically brutal era, smaller players or not. If you want to say Demarcus Ware is a better player than LT well you're entitled to your opinion and you seem like a very logical person. In fact I appreciate your insight.
When people ask who would you rate as the top 5 best players of all time? Lawrence Taylor comes up and Demarcus Ware doesn't, he may in 10 years, but not now. Demarcus Ware doesn't even come up in a conversation of top 5 best LB's of all time. Derrick Brooks doesn't come up in that conversation and if Ware has a career Like Derrick Brooks we should be extremely happy. O-lineman being 40 lbs larger then than now won't convince me nor the masses and that seems to be your sticking point. Players as a whole now are larger than then.
Now I never heard you say Ware is the better player so I am going to ask you. Who do you believe is better? Ware or LT? I think you just enjoy a good debate.
