talent is a combination of sport IQ, athletic ability and skill.
different evaluators lean to different equations which is why boards are all over the place given the exact same data.
ramsay may well have the highest ceiling in this draft. he's long and physical with an incredible belief in self.
but he is no where near the technician hargreaves is which makes sense given hargreaves access to better coaching his entire life.
Half of those second rounders will go mid-late first. Billings and Nkemdiche could both go top 15.
I predict Nkemdiche is the one who will fall.
I predict Nkemdiche is the one who will fall.
I guess my point was, sort of like Myles Jack, Ramsey is a projection is amazing athletic ability, but neither his tape nor his numbers really pop off the screen. You could be right, it could be coaching. It could also be a lack of instincts though and I don't want a DB without instincts. We've seen where that gets us.
Also, I wouldn't say Hargreaves has had better coaching his entire life. There is a reason FSU has put out some great defensive players and defensive backs lately. They're getting very good coaching there. For Hargreaves, I think it has to do more with he has never been the fastest or the biggest, so he learned to be a tactician. Ramsey relies on his athletic prowess to get by.
As of today give me Wentz in the 1st and Doctson in the 2nd and I am stoked! Throw in Collins in the 3rd and use the rest in the D and I might faint!
I'm not a TCU fan but I watched every game last year that Doctson played and the dude is incredible.
I second this
Hargreaves Dad was a college coach. He has had access to collegiate level training since he was a kid.
FSU and Florida are certainly comparable but Hargreaves was the sounder more developed kid coming out of high school.
Where Ramsay has an edge is just length and athleticism. He compares well to Patrick Peterson while Hargreaves as a body very similar to Mo Claiborne.
He really is... but 2 concerns.
1. When will be he 100%.
2. Can he learn the full NFL route tree after being basically a hitch or fly guy at TCU.
That's the comparison you came up with? Let me guess, you're a Ramsey fan. Patrick Peterson was 6'0" 219lbs at the combine. Ramsey is listed at 6'1" 195lbs. That is a considerable difference. Ramsey is lankey and slender. Peterson was a man child, thick through the shoulders and midsection.
Hargreaves is much more similar to Joe Haden, physcially and in play style, than Morris Claiborne. The only reason to make that comparison is to try and sandbag Hargreaves. At the combine, Claiborne was 5'11" 188lbs. Vernon Hargreaves is listed at 5'11" 192, pre-combine. I guarantee he is 195 lbs by the time the combine rolls around, if not bigger. He is bigger in the shoulders, arms and thighs already than Claiborne is. He is wider in also wider in the hips which means a better ability to add bulk.
I already stated, and therefore agree, that Ramsey has the edge in athleticism. Hell, he's probably the most physically gifted athlete in the entire draft. He is an Olympic level athlete. Hargreaves dad may have been a football coach, but Ramsey had the added tutelage of Olympic training with world class athletes.
Hargreaves production and pedigree are simply in a whole different class than Ramsey though. Ramsey has shown versatility, but he isn't as good of a safety or corner than Hargreaves is a corner.
Sounds tailor made for this offense already
Mo Claiborne was an off the charts prospect. Comparing someone to him is hardly sandbagging him. He was openly called the best defensive prospect in his entire draft class.
Between Hargreaves and Ramsay I am fairly even. I'd have to talk to them and see medicals to split the difference.
Hargeaves is ACTUALLY about 5'9 and a half BTW according to most scouts and that 192 is likely wearing all his clothes including shoes.... But we'll have the combine to straighten all that out.
My point was pretty simple. Peterson was a good CB at LSU but Mo was FAR BETTER. On the same team, Mo would draw WR1.
Peterson was used differently and heavily in the return game.
Again, Peterson had better measurables but lesser tape.
Just larger and more physical.
Almost exact situation as with Ramsay and Hargreaves.
The issue for Mo is he was maxed out in college. He got almost no bigger or only a bit stronger. PP improved his technique and coverage massively.
So scouts do try to account for ceilings.
If you look at the tape VHiii is electric but not very big(seldom taller than a WR he covers on tape) and inconsistent at best with physical play.
He didn't win many balls in the air versus Bama. Just undersized versus that slew of 6'1" WRs.
http://draftbreakdown.com/video/vernon-hargreaves-iii-vs-alabama-2015/
Hargreaves may not be 5'11", but he isn't 5'9". I have seen the guy in person. I am 6" and there is no way the guy was 3" shorter than me.
Boy, Lynch has really fallen according to some...
alot of surprises here. Elliot moving way up. Buckner starting to get some love.