Delay of game penalty... mass confusion... what is it?

[theebs]

So I posted this in another thread but I am making it its own thread in case anyone else has seen this penalty called or not called or enforced differently in some of the games I didnt get a chance to watch.........

I am completely confused by this rule and I think the officials are also, it played a big role in the giants game yesterday and I am afraid it is going to change another game down the stretch. If you watched that game you will know Troy Aikman thinks they blew the call yesterday too.

The giants got a penalty for delay of game on a 2nd and long and it would have been first and goal while the game was still tied.

The refs blew it and I need it explained to me, I think the officials made a serious blunder they gave shockey the 5 yard delay of game penalty and then took the first down away and counted the down. I think that is a mistake and they screwed up the rule.....I have not seen this talked about today on any show.

The giants would have taken a lead and had the momentum with a td. It changed the game and I believe it was the wrong call. It should have been a first down and then the penalty marked off.....Aikman was baffled as to why they made the down count and took the first down away and said that is not how the rule is to be interpreted.

Not only that but all he did was flip the ball forward, it should never have been a penalty. Owens got one in the game yesterday too.

Then the strangest thing happened last night in the Pats game. Wes welker catches a big third down pass for a first in the first quarter and he gets up and spikes the ball and makes a little dance........NO PENALTY...someone needs to explain that to me and some national network or sports writer needs to talk about this...it is not right.

I hate that penalty and see nothing wrong with players spiking balls after big plays, the even bigger problem I have is that it is subjective and not enforced equally in every game...in the giants game shockey did something less demonstrative than welker...welker doesnt get a penalty, the pats keep the first down and go onto score...the giants get the penalty, somehow lose the play and lose the down..

Someone needs to explain this to me and to the giants fans today I believe because that was an error on the officials and it was very costly.....All you are going to hear today is the giants suck, but I think they got a raw deal....

anyone else have any thoughts on this ridiculous delay of game penalty?

 

[Smith22]

Don't like the penalty at all. I saw the non call in the Pats game as well. Very inconsistent so far.

IMO, just call the penalty if the ball is spiked at the opponent and be done with it.

 

[WV Cowboy]

anyone else have any thoughts on this ridiculous delay of game penalty?

I didn't see the Giants game, but I saw the penalty that Owens got, and the one that the Pats didn't get.

It was ridiculous to give Owens a penalty, but if he gets one, Welker should have too.

But of course it was the Patriots, so they get a different set of rules. (aka "The Tuck Rule")

Same for the Squeelers.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Stupid rule.

Hopefully they will cover it some night on NFLN.

 

[theebs]

I am not trying to say their is favoritsm to any team. Please dont misunderstand that.

I am saying that the officials seem to be confused because in three games I watched yesterday. Same penalty should have been called with the same outcome in all three games I watched. THe three players did the same thing. Shockey's really was the least demonstrative. However all three games and official teams called and interpreted the rule differently.

I am confused as to why and I think it is important because I really think it changed the giants game, they went from 1st and goal in tie game to third and long and then didnt convert and had to kick a field goal, it was an important part of the game.....

Aikman said repeatedly on the broadcast that something was wrong with the penalty and didnt seem right....Then to see the officials not even throw the flag when it was an obvious delay of game on welker is a real head shaker.

 

[Yeagermeister]

They lost the down also?

 

[superpunk]

The same thing happened in Detroit, after their RB (Bell, I think) broke a big one down the sideline to put them in FG range in OT. He got up, and did the exact same thing Owens did, except the ball went farther forward. Should have been a penalty.

It's not a good rule - but it is a rule, and players should avoid it whether it's going to be equally enforced or not. Like putting your hand on a QB's head...

 

[theebs]

They lost the down also?

Yep. From 1st and goal to third and long. penalty with the loss of the down....

 

[Yeagermeister]

Yep. From 1st and goal to third and long. penalty with the loss of the down....

That's crazy. If anything it's 1st and goal after the penalty yards are added.

 

[theebs]

yep aikman went a short rant about the call being wrong....There was no clarification, they spotted the ball and the giants had an incompletion and the game went on...

very confusing and if the officials are unsure of it how can they continue this.. It is a rule so the players have to stop doing it of course but at the same time a silly rule like this, which is just trying to make these guys look like choir boys should not ever change a game.....

 

[joseephuss]

Inconsistency does not make it a bad rule. I am not saying it is a good rule, but the refs just missed the call against Welker. They often miss holding calls. We also know that T.O. is a target. The refs as well as the announcers watch every little thing he does and he earned that reputation.

It is a dead ball penalty so the down will count. T.O. converted a 3rd down when he got his called. Dallas got the first down and then got pushed back the yardage due to the penalty. It was not 3rd down again with more yards to go.

According to the play by play on NFL.com, there was also an offsides penalty against GB on the same play with Shockey that you referenced. The penalties offset each other and the down was replayed.



Two-Minute Warning
3-4-GB 30 (1:59) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass short middle to 80-J.Shockey to GB 16 for 14 yards (20-A.Bigby). Penalty on GB-74-A.Kampman, Defensive Offside, offsetting, enforced at GB 30 - No Play. Penalty on NYG-80-J.Shockey, Delay of Game, offsetting.
3-4-GB 30 (1:53) (Shotgun) 10-E.Manning pass incomplete deep middle to 80-J.Shockey.

 

[AsthmaField]

Yep. From 1st and goal to third and long. penalty with the loss of the down....

If it was 1st and goal and then the penalty happened... even if they counted off the yardage and counted the down (which would be wrong) then it should have been 2nd and long. Right?

If it was first down when the penalty happened, then if they counted that play, it should have been second down. At least to me it should be.

I did not see the game though.

 

[theebs]

right and if I remember correctly aikman was emphatic that it should not be offset. The offsides should have been waived because the delay penalty is supposed to be a dead ball, after the play....the play should have counted and then they should have marked off 5 yards after the catch by shockey.

just like in our game against the giants, henry got that call on the 3rd and 10 and instead of it being 3rd and 5 again for the giants it was 4th and 5.

See the difference Or am I wrong. essentially what happened yesterday from how I understand it and aikman is it should have been an after the fact penalty. The offsides should have been waived, the first down catch should have been accepted and then the 5 yards should have been put on the outcome of the play. It should not have been offset. They went back yesterday and replayed the down...it was then 3rd down...it should have been 1st down..

 

[theebs]

If it was 1st and goal and then the penalty happened... even if they counted off the yardage and counted the down (which would be wrong) then it should have been 2nd and long. Right?

If it was first down when the penalty happened, then if they counted that play, it should have been second down. At least to me it should be.

I did not see the game though.

no it was 3rd down on the play, then the penalty, then they replayed the down.

It should have been first and goal with the 5 yards marked off after the play, the play should have stood. Just like when henry did it against the giants.

 

[joseephuss]

right and if I remember correctly aikman was emphatic that it should not be offset. The offsides should have been waived because the delay penalty is supposed to be a dead ball, after the play....the play should have counted and then they should have marked off 5 yards after the catch by shockey.

just like in our game against the giants, henry got that call on the 3rd and 10 and instead of it being 3rd and 5 again for the giants it was 4th and 5.

See the difference Or am I wrong. essentially what happened yesterday from how I understand it and aikman is it should have been an after the fact penalty. The offsides should have been waived, the first down catch should have been accepted and then the 5 yards should have been put on the outcome of the play. It should not have been offset. They went back yesterday and replayed the down...it was then 3rd down...it should have been 1st down..

You make some good points. Seems like it should be that way. Refs do make mistakes sometimes. That still does not make it a bad rule. Just bad enforcement.

And for the record I don't like the rule. I still want the players on the team I root for to understand that the rule exists and they can't be breaking it. Barber flipped the ball once yesterday and I was glad the refs weren't sticklers on that play and called it. T.O. would have been called again.

 

[peplaw06]

A LOT of plays end with the ballcarrier throwing/dropping the ball when the play is over. I'd guess that 75% of the time the ball is not thrown directly to the ref.

now whether the ball is left on the ground or dropped there, or spiked there, you're putting a lot on the refs to pick out which ones have the intent or result of "delaying the game." When things like this have been done for so long, and a new rule is imposed making it illegal, you're always going to have inconsistencies in the early part of its enforcement.

For the record I don't like the rule, but when it starts getting called consistently, you're going to see it happen less and less.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

This rule and the Unsportsman like conduct they give players who celebrate are two of the dumbest rules and most hypocritical in the game.

The league does everything they can to market these guy's personalities, (Chad Johnson, T.O. et al.) and then they penalize them for displaying their personalities on the field. They talk about the great emotion in the game yet someone gets excited about a big 3rd down conversion and celebrates and they get a penalty.

I think the NFL needs to figure out what they want. Either a league that has some personality or a bunch of choir boys.

I think it's ludicrous.

 

[theebs]

You make some good points. Seems like it should be that way. Refs do make mistakes sometimes. That still does not make it a bad rule. Just bad enforcement.

And for the record I don't like the rule. I still want the players on the team I root for to understand that the rule exists and they can't be breaking it. Barber flipped the ball once yesterday and I was glad the refs weren't sticklers on that play and called it. T.O. would have been called again.

Just hoping for some clarification thats all. I think with all the preperation that goes into a game, the officials should not be able to change the outcome of the game with a dead ball penalty. especially when they can not even decide what is or isnt the penalty in the first place!

 

[lurkercowboy]

right and if I remember correctly aikman was emphatic that it should not be offset. The offsides should have been waived because the delay penalty is supposed to be a dead ball, after the play....the play should have counted and then they should have marked off 5 yards after the catch by shockey.

just like in our game against the giants, henry got that call on the 3rd and 10 and instead of it being 3rd and 5 again for the giants it was 4th and 5.

See the difference Or am I wrong. essentially what happened yesterday from how I understand it and aikman is it should have been an after the fact penalty. The offsides should have been waived, the first down catch should have been accepted and then the 5 yards should have been put on the outcome of the play. It should not have been offset. They went back yesterday and replayed the down...it was then 3rd down...it should have been 1st down..

You are right. The key is that is was a dead ball penalty. Shocky made the first down and the play was over. He committed the infraction after the play so the offsides/offsetting thing should not have happened.

 

[Boston Cowboy]

no it was 3rd down on the play, then the penalty, then they replayed the down.

It should have been first and goal with the 5 yards marked off after the play, the play should have stood. Just like when henry did it against the giants.

They didn't lose the down, the down was replayed due to "offsetting" penalties. What should have happened was what you say above...First and goal, declining the offsides penalty, and then marking off the 5 yards on the delay of game penalty, which is a dead ball foul.

The Giants got screwed there, but they didn't play well enough down the stretch to warrant a win.