Derek Eagleton On Zeke/O-Line

[MyFairLady]

he’s on track for a career low in carries.

still has a 4.1 avg per rush.

his reception numbers are excellent.

4.1 YPC is awful.

He is at 6.4 yards per reception. This is 152nd in the NFL. He has a 4.8 yards per target for receiving. This is bordering on epic levels of futility.

 

[RonnieT24]

Lol, so it’s SB or bust? By those standards, zeke is scrub. Speaking of, CJ did make zeke look like a scrub in that playoff game.

You brought up the Rams and said they didn't miss a beat after losing Gurley.. Seems like scoring 3 points in the most important game of the season might qualify as missing several beats.

I love how you use play calling stats to back up your claim.

So you equate volume to being the best? There’s plenty of other RB’s who had much worse O lines yet had the same or more ypc but because of the play calling or other offensive players on their team they didn’t get the ball as much or they would have won the meaningless rushing title, which is almost always a direct result of total carries which is a direct result of play calling. By that standard, Demarco Murray was a much better RB than zeke.

Volume is directly proportional to production. If you average 3 ypc they don't keep giving you the ball. Even the simplest football fan should be able to see that. His production has led directly to his being afforded more opportunities. You may have noticed that this year, when he has been producing less, he has been afforded fewer opportunities.. Funny how that works huh?

TD’s?! Bwahahahahaha...yeah, that makes you elite when your handed the ball at the two yard line. Again, most TD’s are nothing but a result of play calling. I guess if teams have players like Dez, Kittle, Witten, etc or other red zone threats and the ball gets spread around more than whoever their RB is should be “penalized” for not getting as many TD’s as some scrub they may bring in for plays on the 5 yard line. What game was it that Dak had two rushing TD’s from the 1-2 yard line and zeke had only one? I guess that means Dak is a better rusher.

The fact that you keep having to jump through hoops to try and debunk the value of all these areas where Zeke remains among the best in the game kinda proves my point. You are finding all these excuses why his production should be minimized.

He’s actually 9th in yards and 7th in attempts, if he was that good he should have more yards than attempts. Again, his yards are a direct result of his attempts and there are several RB’s with less attempts and more yards. His ypc average isn’t even top 10, where do you come up with this crap?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/stat/rushing/table/rushing/sort/rushingAttempts/dir/desc

One last question, remember the ~7 links to articles about zeke I posted for you? Did you read a single one? I noticed you never replied, do I need to post them again or do you just want to continue to ignore them like all his other fan boys?

Zeke is playing behind a crappy line and his production is down because of it. I don't really see that as something that needs to be discussed. I ignore your opinion articles because.. well you know what they say about opinions right.. I watch the games and then look at the numbers. I don't need some "expert" to tell me what good football looks like. I won't hold it against you that you do..

 

[Stash]

I understand it. @aria quickly reminds the site lol.I'm not denying he was better his rookie season but look at these highlights....

Highlights are great for nostalgia and reminiscing.

Can you honestly see a difference in Zeke the runner? Because I don't.

I definitely can. The speed and burst is gone. And the lack of explosive plays on his part supports that.

I just see a guy who's offensive line isn't nearly as good. There are times in these clips where he's not touched for 10 yards. I'm not going to say his production was strictly based on the offensive line but to me that's the biggest difference in him.

Well that's exactly the point, isn't it? If he needs the biggest investment ever in an offensive line to have success, then he himself was never worth the initial investment and that #4 overall pick.

And this is what I mean by maybe we need to dial back what we initially thought of him. I think he was a good running back who profited off of a great offensive line. Everyone was so quick to point out the line being beneficial to Dak but it was to Zeke as well.

I agree, and again if that's the case, the huge investment of the 4th overall pick in the draft was clearly a mistake.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

So far you are incorrect and it’s not even close, no surprise there. I also doubt it will ever be as bad as Barkley’s rookie year.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/offensive-line/2020

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/offensive-line/2018

As far as Barry vs Barkley, Barry never had as bad as an O line as Barkley had his first 2 years and it remains to be seen how Barkley holds up for the rest of his career. I’m not saying Barkley will be better than Sanders, especially after his injury, but Barkley broke several records his rookie year than Barry never did and shares some some of the same records as Barry and only a couple other backs.

Is that he 2020 offensive line or the one from the past few games that has no starters on it? Nate Solder and Will Hernandez are better than anything on this porous line. Let's don't kid ourselves. You guys keep talking about Barkley's rookie season....man he's no Barry. He never was and never will be. Barry wasn't as brittle as Barkley either.

 

[TwistedL0g1k]

I'll add this about Zeke's contract... One can argue that he got the second contract too early, or that it was too costly, but the fact is Zeke was always going to get that second contract, and it was always going to be very expensive. Once the team made the enormous investment of a #4 overall pick, they were trapped into giving him a big deal. There was never really a choice.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Highlights are great for nostalgia and reminiscing.



I definitely can. The speed and burst is gone. And the lack of explosive plays on his part supports that.



Well that's exactly the point, isn't it? If he needs the biggest investment ever in an offensive line to have success, then he himself was never worth the initial investment and that #4 overall pick.



I agree, and again if that's the case, the huge investment of the 4th overall pick in the draft was clearly a mistake.

Yeah man I want to see it but I'm not seeing it. He looks shiftier and quicker especially running towards the outside....I'll admit that but the lost of speed and burst shouldn't result in what we are seeing. Especially these fumbles.

And I agree that is the point. That's what I'm saying right now. I don't think he was nearly as good as we thought he was. Or that I thought he was I won't speak for anyone else. I thought he was a game changer. I didn't think he needed 3 Pro Bowlers on the offensive line to be effective.

And yes I'd also say the Cowboys screwed up drafting him that early. I think most that was a mistake in itself. But it was hard to call it a mistake if this team was going to get 11-13 wins every year with him.

I know the pick most would've made was Ramsey. Who knows how he would've played out here. But this team foolishly tried to extend Romo's prime by drafting Zeke. It was foolish then and foolish now. If you want to draft Zeke because you thought he was the best player that's fine but it was done to extend a broken down Romo who ended up breaking down like history showed us he would do to injuries.

Always gonna be a Zeke fan but its another move that's proving to be a bad move. Like I said above, if this team is winning 11-13 games a year with him there's no complaints but that isn't happening.

 

[DuncanIso]

Zeke needs more carries.

only has 113

He needs to avg18-22 carries a game.

10-12 a game doesn’t work.

 

[jterrell]

None of this is really as stated... and I tend to like Greeny.
Barry was a beautiful runner and insane big play threat but his issue was getting that 3rd and 1 when the defense knew it was coming.
Barry was never as reliable as Emmitt.
He was a freelancer that made his OL look shakier than they were.

Zeke got paid because his agent was smart enough to force the issue while Zeke had some tread left.
Jerry had the same issue he had with Emmitt as his rookie deal expired. Pay the guy or change the offense totally.
He caved and paid up.
At least some of what Zeke gets paid is imply compensating his rookie deal where he was an elite(if not THE elite) back.

Emmitt was an all phases guy who excelled in every area.
He could pass block while Moose went out for passes.
He could turn short passes and screens into solid gains.
His vision was off the charts good and he never took direct hits which both extended his career and vastly reduced fumbles.
He was strong as a bull in the legs so could get that extra yard after contact every play.
He got better as the game wore on and made his OL all better by following blocks and being patient.

If Zeke is anything like Emmitt the next 3-4 years will go well and he'll earn his money.
If not this is the NFL and a guy can be cut only/traded a couple seasons after signing a large deal with little pain.

 

[Stash]

I'll add this about Zeke's contract... One can argue that he got the second contract too early, or that it was too costly, but the fact is Zeke was always going to get that second contract, and it was always going to be very expensive. Once the team made the enormous investment of a #4 overall pick, they were trapped into giving him a big deal. There was never really a choice.

I don't believe that's true.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

I'll add this about Zeke's contract... One can argue that he got the second contract too early, or that it was too costly, but the fact is Zeke was always going to get that second contract, and it was always going to be very expensive. Once the team made the enormous investment of a #4 overall pick, they were trapped into giving him a big deal. There was never really a choice.

This is true. But I do wonder if they had waited would the contract be as much especially if this season played out like it has. If I'm not mistaken he should've been a free agent after this year correct? They would've saved millions.

And this is the type of thing where the Cowboys just simply suck. Getting in front of the La'El Collins deal was smart(if he's going to come in out of shape then it probably will be a failure too but I'll take a wait and see approach on that deal...). Getting in front of the Dak deal was a no brainer. You knew you wanted him. You know you were going to sign him. To wait this long is just moronic. To get in front of the Jaylon deal was moronic. You knew the history with his injuries and you also knew he really only had one good year under his I believe 3 year career at that point. You knew Zeke's production was tailing off since his rookie season....you knew Lawrence was never a 14 sack a year guy......these are just dumb moves and it makes no sense why they refused to see the benefits of getting in front of the Dak deal but they did all these other guys.

 

[aria]

You brought up the Rams and said they didn't miss a beat after losing Gurley.. Seems like scoring 3 points in the most important game of the season might qualify as missing several beats.



Volume is directly proportional to production. If you average 3 ypc they don't keep giving you the ball. Even the simplest football fan should be able to see that. His production has led directly to his being afforded more opportunities. You may have noticed that this year, when he has been producing less, he has been afforded fewer opportunities.. Funny how that works huh?



The fact that you keep having to jump through hoops to try and debunk the value of all these areas where Zeke remains among the best in the game kinda proves my point. You are finding all these excuses why his production should be minimized.



Zeke is playing behind a crappy line and his production is down because of it. I don't really see that as something that needs to be discussed. I ignore your opinion articles because.. well you know what they say about opinions right.. I watch the games and then look at the numbers. I don't need some "expert" to tell me what good football looks like. I won't hold it against you that you do..

So his production is down because of the O line but the O line had nothing to do with him putting up more yards and getting more touches his first 4 years? Maybe you should think about what you’re saying because you’re contradicting yourself.

Excuses? These are facts, I’m not jumping through any hoops, a simple google search tells you all you need to know. Why do you keep ignoring them?

Lol, my opinion articles. I’ve heard that before and it’s from one of two types of people a) they’re in denial or b) they never read the articles. The majority of those articles are not based on opinion, they are based on his numbers. zeke is the one who said “women lie, men lie, stats don’t lie...look at my numbers”. Welp, that’s what those articles did and they aren’t nearly as good as people make them seem. It’s a joke that people like you claim they’re all opinion based when the majority of them break it down comprehensively and explain more than just the simpleton numbers would indicate. Maybe that’s why you ignore them, they tell the truth.

So you claimed he was top 10 in several categories, I posted that link to ESPN for you which proved you wrong yet again. It isn’t an article, it isn’t an opinion, it is just numbers and you didn’t acknowledge how those numbers directly contradict most, if not all, of what you posted about his stats earlier in this thread.

Here’s another comprehensive breakdown but I’m sure you’ll have an excuse or ignore it as well.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/rb/2020

 

[aria]

I understand it. @aria quickly reminds the site lol.I'm not denying he was better his rookie season but look at these highlights....



Can you honestly see a difference in Zeke the runner? Because I don't. I just see a guy who's offensive line isn't nearly as good. There are times in these clips where he's not touched for 10 yards. I'm not going to say his production was strictly based on the offensive line but to me that's the biggest difference in him.

And this is what I mean by maybe we need to dial back what we initially thought of him. I think he was a good running back who profited off of a great offensive line. Everyone was so quick to point out the line being beneficial to Dak but it was to Zeke as well.

I’ve always said he was the best RB in the league in 2016 and yes, I see a clear difference in the runner.

I think you’re finally starting to get it! I’ve been dialing it back since 2017.

BTW, the link doesn’t work but I found it.

 

[Stash]

Yeah man I want to see it but I'm not seeing it. He looks shiftier and quicker especially running towards the outside....I'll admit that but the lost of speed and burst shouldn't result in what we are seeing. Especially these fumbles.

And I agree that is the point. That's what I'm saying right now. I don't think he was nearly as good as we thought he was. Or that I thought he was I won't speak for anyone else. I thought he was a game changer. I didn't think he needed 3 Pro Bowlers on the offensive line to be effective.

And yes I'd also say the Cowboys screwed up drafting him that early. I think most that was a mistake in itself. But it was hard to call it a mistake if this team was going to get 11-13 wins every year with him.

I know the pick most would've made was Ramsey. Who knows how he would've played out here. But this team foolishly tried to extend Romo's prime by drafting Zeke. It was foolish then and foolish now. If you want to draft Zeke because you thought he was the best player that's fine but it was done to extend a broken down Romo who ended up breaking down like history showed us he would do to injuries.

Always gonna be a Zeke fan but its another move that's proving to be a bad move. Like I said above, if this team is winning 11-13 games a year with him there's no complaints but that isn't happening.

As good as we want to remember the 2016 draft (mainly because of Prescott), It was actually successful by accident.

The team could have drafted Ramsey there at #4 and Derrick Henry in the 2nd round, and Henry looks to be as good as he's ever been. Instead we have Elliott and Jaylon Smith, two poster boys for overpaid underachievers on this team.

And if left to our own devices, Jones and the Cowboys would have actually traded back into round one and taken Paxton Lynch! The horror!

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

Sanders OL was not exactly great, or even good, either.

But I don't think it was as bad as some claim.

I didn't watch a ton of Barry Sanders....but what I know is it seemed he preferred to dance instead of slashing through the line. He preferred to run around, behind, zig and zag...rather than take anyone on THROUGH. IMPRESSIVE....but possibly contributed to some bad-looking oline numbers.

I'll have to go back to some youtubes and see if my recollection is anywhere near close.

 

[SteveTheCowboy]

As good as we want to remember the 2016 draft (mainly because of Prescott), It was actually successful by accident.

The team could have drafted Ramsey there at #4 and Derrick Henry in the 2nd round, and Henry looks to be as good as he's ever been. Instead we have Elliott and Jaylon Smith, two poster boys for overpaid underachievers on this team.

And if left to our own devices, Jones and the Cowboys would have actually traded back into round one and taken Paxton Lynch! The horror!

Don't you think it's possible the Cowboys would have ruined your golden boys too?

 

[RonnieT24]

So his production is down because of the O line but the O line had nothing to do with him putting up more yards and getting more touches his first 4 years? Maybe you should think about what you’re saying because you’re contradicting yourself.

Excuses? These are facts, I’m not jumping through any hoops, a simple google search tells you all you need to know. Why do you keep ignoring them?

Lol, my opinion articles. I’ve heard that before and it’s from one of two types of people a) they’re in denial or b) they never read the articles. The majority of those articles are not based on opinion, they are based on his numbers. zeke is the one who said “women lie, men lie, stats don’t lie...look at my numbers”. Welp, that’s what those articles did and they aren’t nearly as good as people make them seem. It’s a joke that people like you claim they’re all opinion based when the majority of them break it down comprehensively and explain more than just the simpleton numbers would indicate. Maybe that’s why you ignore them, they tell the truth.

So you claimed he was top 10 in several categories, I posted that link to ESPN for you which proved you wrong yet again. It isn’t an article, it isn’t an opinion, it is just numbers and you didn’t acknowledge how those numbers directly contradict most, if not all, of what you posted about his stats earlier in this thread.

Here’s another comprehensive breakdown but I’m sure you’ll have an excuse or ignore it as well.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/rb/2020

I already posted the categories wherein Zeke ranks in the top 10. Yards, carries, TDs, yards after contact and broken tackles. There is nothing you can post which can disprove any of them. No matter what "breakdowns" you post will change those numbers. Spin it how ever you like. The numbers are what they are and no amount of "well if you factor in blah blah blah" will change them one iota. Zeke has been good to great for the entirety of his career and this year while being "bad" he is among the league leaders in several major categories despite playing behind crap for a line.. Again.. if he's "bad" but still in the top 10 what does that say about the rest of these running backs most of whom are probably getting much better blocking than Zeke is..

 

[aria]

Is that he 2020 offensive line or the one from the past few games that has no starters on it? Nate Solder and Will Hernandez are better than anything on this porous line. Let's don't kid ourselves. You guys keep talking about Barkley's rookie season....man he's no Barry. He never was and never will be. Barry wasn't as brittle as Barkley either.

I’m not going to get too into Barry vs Barkley other than what I already said. Overall, no, I don’t think Barkley will ever be Barry unless he gets back to his rookie year stats and stays there for awhile which is highly unlikely. Had he stayed healthy this year and still put up great numbers I think it would have been a legitimate debate.

What year are you talking about Solder and Hernandez?

 

[Stash]

Don't you think it's possible the Cowboys would have ruined your golden boys too?

How so? Do you think that there is some 'cloud of darkness' with the Cowboys that somehow 'ruins' otherwise great players?

If so, Dak has managed to do a great job of fighting through it and it's scary to think of what he could be free of that cloud.

I think it's far more likely that the Cowboys guessed wrong and chose to invest in a few of the wrong guys.

 

[Stash]

I already posted the categories wherein Zeke ranks in the top 10. Yards, carries, TDs, yards after contact and broken tackles. There is nothing you can post which can disprove any of them. No matter what "breakdowns" you post will change those numbers. Spin it how ever you like. The numbers are what they are and no amount of "well if you factor in blah blah blah" will change them one iota. Zeke has been good to great for the entirety of his career and this year while being "bad" he is among the league leaders in several major categories despite playing behind crap for a line.. Again.. if he's "bad" but still in the top 10 what does that say about the rest of these running backs most of whom are probably getting much better blocking than Zeke is..

How about the numbers you're willfully ignoring?



In six games, Elliott has fumbled five times, losing four.

Elliott's 101 rushing attempts places him sixth among all backs in the NFL. His three lost fumbles on rushes (not counting the one after a reception) equal the amount of the rest of the top ten combined.

Zeke lost just five fumbles in his first four seasons before this year's deluge. The four botches this season have led directly to 28 points for Cowboys' opponents.

Even outside the fumbles, Elliott is experiencing a career-worst in most metrics. The Pro Bowl back is averaging career lows in touches per game (22.2), scrimmage yards per game (102.8), yards per touch (4.6), carries per game (16.8), and rush yards per game (68.8). His 4.1 yards per carry mark is the second-lowest in his career to date.

 

[G2]

Umm actually it was.. He had his highest passer rating AND QBR that year. It was also his best year in terms of TD/INT ration.. 34/9 .. Almost 4 to 1. It was not his biggest output yardage wise but ask any Dak hater and they will happily tell you that yards mean nothing..

For once he could keep his attempts to a realistic number. Having balance and a solid running game for once is what it's all about. I still point my finger at the defense for not getting us further. I think it was ranked somewhere around 15th or 16th.