Dez catch

[Jarntt]

That leaves out the debate about a football move, which is what Cowboys were arguing.

Because it doesn't matter. All aspects of the rule must be met, not just some. The rule was poorly written. But in that poorly written rule it clearly states if he is going to the ground in the act of catching the pass and he loses control of the ball and it touches the ground, it is incomplete.

 

[Swagger]

That play (link) has sat with me heavily as much as the Dez Bryant ref play. Julius Peppers made a fantastic play, literally launching and stretching back into the hole to strip the ball. Peppers' great effort would have been completely negated if Demarco Murray had simply covered up the ball like coaches teach running backs in junior high.

Or even held it in his left hand.

 

[OmerV]

The rule was time to make a football move. He displayed that was met by making 3 football moves. Moving the ball with his two hands to contact his right shoulder, helping brace it for ground contact, moving the ball from that spot to his left in in preparation for the reach, and executing the reach for the goal line.



As @McKDaddy explained he was going up in the air to make the catch. He wasn’t going to the ground to make the catch.

The old thread has the video with Blandino explaining (prior to the Dez catch) and completely contradicting his later ruling in the Dez catch.

You were there in the thread so it was presented to you. Go watch it and he’ll explain why Dez wasn’t in the process of making the catch as he was going to the ground. He’d already completed the 3 steps necessary to becoming a runner.

Every one of those are the kind of movements that can be performed while in the air or falling to the ground before possession is established. In short, arm movements alone aren't sufficient to satisfy the rule.

The rule was related to having the time and ability to perform the kind of movement needed to make a cut or try and avoid contact, or other similar type movement displaying body control. With that being the case, the steps are what the Cowboys have to use for the argument, and not merely hand movements

 

[OmerV]

They later changed it again, right? Could be mistaken. But I thought they changed it again because the way they tried to word it (to fit the Dez catch being not one) defied logic, was overly complex, and didn’t come close to solving the problem they had created with a bad overruling .

I'm not sure - maybe so. I haven't looked at the rule in a few years, but I felt it was very poorly worded before the Dez play, and the change they made afterward was still poorly worded. It almost seemed like they were intentionally trying to vague

 

[G2]

There's really no argument on how the rule WAS written. The rule being changed the next season is a moot point and there are no dots to connect. Other than the NFL understanding the rule wasn't written very well and making the change.
Dez didn't maintain control AND the ball touching the ground are what made it incomplete.

4th and short, maybe don't gamble a 50/50 attempt?

 

[MyFairLady]

I blows me away sometimes. I feel like I am the only person on the planet that holds Dez responsible for dropping that ball. All the nonsense about the rules. All the non sense about the play call. At the end of the day the ball was placed perfectly in the hands of our "best" player at the most important time of the season. It was everything everyone could have hoped for including Dez himself. There was only one turd on that day and it was the guy who dropped the ball.

 

[locked&loaded]

The going to the ground rule at the time overrides all these. 3 steps wasn't even part of the rule yet. The only thing Dez could have done to get out of the going to the ground rule is to "gather himself" according to the rule and execute a proper lunge. He tried but his foot slipped on his 3rd step so he continued to fall. Going to the ground means you're falling, not running upright, which are the rules you posted. Different situation for Dez which is why the GTTG rules applied.

a football move was part of the rule, though. thus...taking 3 steps, switching the ball into his hand and reaching out...while he covered 7 yards.

you are talking about someone going to the ground without making a football move, Dez was a runner at that time.

 

[OmerV]

a football move was part of the rule, though. thus...taking 3 steps, switching the ball into his hand and reaching out...while he covered 7 yards.

you are talking about someone going to the ground without making a football move, Dez was a runner at that time.

Arm movements (switching arms & reaching out) aren't body control. Those are movements that can be made in the air or while falling - before possession is established.

The steps are the only argument fans have, and the ruling was the steps were taken while in the act of going to the ground, not while Dez had the kind of body control where he could make any move other than falling to the ground.

For me, the only true argument we have as fans is if the steps created enough of a question that the original ruling shouldn't have been overturned.

 

[McKDaddy]

Julius Peppers made a fantastic play, literally launching and stretching back into the hole to strip the ball.

I'm not blame DeMarco for the fumble because of this. JP literally made a one in a ten thousand play (that may not even be enough). Moreover, he was only able to make it due to his size, length & athleticism. In other words, I can't think of another defender from that era who could have made the play. There is a reason JP was considered among the freakiest players to ever line up at DE and his first ballot HOF induction. I just have to take my hat off and say the dude probably saved his team with that one play.

I'm sure DeMarco, like all of us watching, thought he was free & clear and was just trying to accelerate & pick his path.

 

[MarcusRock]

They can't, by rule. "Indisputable video evidence" eliminates the possibility of subjectivity being applied to the replay. It applies to "did the ball touch the ground" but not "is the player falling or diving," which is what the review is predicated on.

Yeah, except in several controversial cases concerning this rule, that is exactly what's happened.

Calvin Johnson (2010) - ruled a completed catch, overturned to say GTTG applied instead
Dez Bryant (2013) - ruled a completed catch, overturned to say GTTG applied instead
Dez Bryant (2015) - ruled a completed catch, overturned to say GTTG applied instead
Andre Ellington (2017) - ruled a completed catch, overturned to say GTTG applied instead
Jesse James (2017) - ruled a completed catch, overturned to say GTTG applied instead

Your response was, the NFL did it wrong. Okay.

He is not touched after possession unless possession is determined before the ball hits the ground, completing the catch. After Dez hits the ground, he is not touched.

It is a touchdown if they are ruling the ball is being bobbled after touching the ground, because after he contacts the ground he is not touched by the defender. You cannot be down by contact without possession. You are ignoring this fact.

They could have ruled he completed a catch or they could have ruled he was GTTG and kept the ball off the ground. In either case you don't get to be touched by a defender, bounce forward, volley the ball, get up and keep running if this happened at the 50. Again, rule citation? Precedence like I listed above? I keep asking for this yet you produce none. And I'm ignoring facts? And to boot, even if this were true, replay can say GTTG applied and, oh look, the ball touched the ground, per the rules and precedent above. So, a-freakin-gain: rule citation?

It is a schtick. Every time someone says there's a bad call, you play the "refs don't matter" tough guy card. It's clockwork. You come in arguing holding calls like there is a right and wrong for that lol.

Anywhere there's victim whining on a play claiming refs are cheating when they were actually right, I'm gonna be there. Both ways. Truth actually matters to me even if it doesn't to most anymore. Just my thing. But oh the irony of trying to say I'm doing some "tough guy" act when you swoop in to call people's opinion "nonsense" with overbearing bravado on the regular like another poster here does. Those are great lawyer/political campaign manager skills used to browbeat the uninformed by sounding confident about stuff even they know isn't true. But bravado sometimes meets people who actually know their spit and it's not effective.

On this play, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what they had to rule to turnover the call. The review is predicated on whether or not Dez is going to the ground in the process of the catch OR if he is diving for the pilon as a runner. GTTG is not relevant in the review based on what the ruling on the field was because, to get to the point of that mattering, you have to overturn a subjective decision. The ruling on the field was that he is diving as a runner and there is not "indisputable video evidence" to say otherwise.

Done with this convo.

As I listed above, whether they ruled GTTG or regular catch, replay CAN come in and say what applied exactly. You can't show me where it can't beyond selective assumptions and connecting dots the rules haven't.

Appreciate the generally good-natured chat. This is a new angle by a catch theorist over the 9+ years so that's something.

 

[locked&loaded]

Arm movements (switching arms & reaching out) aren't body control. Those are movements that can be made in the air or while falling - before possession is established.

The steps are the only argument fans have, and the ruling was the steps were taken while in the act of going to the ground, not while Dez had the kind of body control where he could make any move other than falling to the ground.

For me, the only true argument we have as fans is if the steps created enough of a question that the original ruling shouldn't have been overturned.

body control? the switching and reaching towards the goal line shows balls control. When combined with 3 steps, it objectively makes Dez a runner.

The mental gymnastics in this thread is astounding. Is the sky still blue?

The whole argument was Dez didn't make a football move. What about securing the ball in the air, switching hands, reaching out, all while taking 3 steps over the course of 7 yards....isn't a football move?

if Dez caught a screen pass at the 1 yard line and stumbled for 99 and then fell on ball and it popped loose...was he going to the ground the whole time?

 

[MyFairLady]

I'm not blame DeMarco for the fumble.

Wow have you ever blamed a Cowboys player for anything? Murray completely blew it. It was 100% his fault.

 

[ArtClink]

uhm..... yea it was all the defense's fault. Let's just forget about the Murray fumble when he was running through a hole the size of a mac truck that likely would have been a TD.

I mentioned Murrays fumble .,,

 

[McKDaddy]

Wow have you ever blamed a Cowboys player for anything? Murray completely blew it. It was 100% his fault.

LOL. You must have me confused with someone else.

I'm the definition of equal opportunity. I call everyone out. Even the "untouchables".

I stand by my comments. If you had frozen that play just before Peppers launched, there would have been unanimous agreement amongst players on the field, fans, coaches, media, everyone that there was zero chance any defensive lineman was going to be a factor in the outcome of that play.

 

[Cowboys5217]

LOL. You must have me confused with someone else.

I'm the definition of equal opportunity. I call everyone out. Even the "untouchables".

I stand by my comments. If you had frozen that play just before Peppers launched, there would have been unanimous agreement amongst players on the field, fans, coaches, media, everyone that there was zero chance any defensive lineman was going to be a factor in the outcome of that play.

And you would be wrong as anyone with a modicum of football experience at the freshman level would tell you Murray was careless while handling the football. There would have been no "1 in 10000" play if Murray tucks the ball away with both hands - just as your taught to do from the earliest days of tackle football for that very reason.

 

[DallasEast]

Or even held it in his left hand.

True but the play design was right of center. Running backs tend to carry the ball depending on which direction the play goes, sort of like the way ballcarriers typically switch the ball to the arm nearest the sideline when running alongside it.

Plus, Demarco Murray may have been self-consciously avoiding carrying the ball with his left arm. He had surgery on his left hand a few weeks prior after suffering an injury against Philadelphia.

 

[DallasEast]

I'm not blame DeMarco for the fumble because of this. JP literally made a one in a ten thousand play (that may not even be enough). Moreover, he was only able to make it due to his size, length & athleticism. In other words, I can't think of another defender from that era who could have made the play. There is a reason JP was considered among the freakiest players to ever line up at DE and his first ballot HOF induction. I just have to take my hat off and say the dude probably saved his team with that one play.

I'm sure DeMarco, like all of us watching, thought he was free & clear and was just trying to accelerate & pick his path.

I respect your opinion but it is not how running backs are taught to carry the ball through the line, regardless if a hole is practically nonexistent or split like the Red Sea. Backs are taught to always cover up the ball at the line to avoid exactly what happened.

Murray was lackadaisical protecting the ball on the play. A quick review of video in other games demonstrate Murray more often carried the ball like a loaf of bread than tucking it. It is never a problem until the ball gets successfully stripped. However, the defense is always trying to strip the ball on every possible occasion, which is why coaches teach proper ball protection.

 

[Swagger]

True but the play design was right of center. Running backs tend to carry the ball depending on which direction the play goes, sort of like the way ballcarriers typically switch the ball to the arm nearest the sideline when running alongside it.

Plus, Demarco Murray may have been self-consciously avoiding carrying the ball with his left arm. He had surgery on his left hand a few weeks prior after suffering an injury against Philadelphia.

Blimey you have a good memory - fair play! I had forgotten about the surgery.

 

[McKDaddy]

And you would be wrong as anyone with a modicum of football experience at the freshman level would tell you Murray was careless while handling the football. There would have been no "1 in 10000" play if Murray tucks the ball away with both hands - just as your taught to do from the earliest days of tackle football for that very reason.

Well, I'll take your modicum and raise it a reality. There are very few running backs (other than known short yardage situations or have bad fumble issues) who wrap the ball with both hands while they are navigating the line of scrimmage until contact is imminent. There are a zillion carries by Emmitt, Barry, Henry & DeMarco etc., where they all have the ball tucked on one side of their body while using the other arm for balance, generate speed and fend off defenders while navigating beyond the line of scrimmage and beyond. Also, see @DallasEast post 215 for other factors as to why this was normal and necessary in this particular instance.

If JP doesn't do something extraordinary, no one is talking about where the ball was at that moment. Period.

 

[MarcusRock]

a football move was part of the rule, though. thus...taking 3 steps, switching the ball into his hand and reaching out...while he covered 7 yards.

you are talking about someone going to the ground without making a football move, Dez was a runner at that time.

When you go to the ground, THOSE rules take precedence over the upright catch rules you're citing. A catch has 3 parts: control, feet down, and time. Back then you could complete a catch while upright or after going to the ground. The latter is because you DIDN'T satisfy the time element (football move or "time enough" to do one) because you dived or are falling and can't/don't do a football move. So if you can't do part 3, you have to keep the ball in your possession through hitting the ground.

Some notes about what you mention: 3 steps wasn't in the rules then; you don't switch hands when you grab it with 2 and choose to put it in 1; reaching out is not a lunge where you "gather yourself" and push forward per the rules. That is the ONLY thing you can do get out of a going to the ground tag per the rules. So you could wave to your mama on the way to the ground but still need to control the ball after hitting it. Also, yards covered or number of steps taken do not matter when going to the ground is called.