Did the Cowboys really want CB Isaiah Johnson?

speedkilz88

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I don't think the Cowboys ever talked with Mike Jackson before the draft, while they had a fair bit of interest in Isaiah Johnson.

My guess is that they liked both Tony Pollard and Johnson, and figured that they had a better chance of getting Johnson with their second 4th round pick, so they let him drop. Kind of sounds strange, as I don't think anyone would predict that Pollard would go before Johnson, but the team has a lot more info than we do.
RBs with speed go pretty fast in the 4th round.

A lot of the media draft gurus didn't even have him at RB, they listed him as a slot WR which isn't going to be as big a priority for most teams.
 
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Hennessy_King

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Actually, it came down to a Pollard vs Johnson pick at #128 in round 4. The Cowboys chose Pollard (which some felt was a reach) and Isaiah Johnson went one pick later at #129 to the Raiders.
You right you right. I forgot. Definitely would have taken johnson over pollard. But we will have to see who plays better.
 

quickccc

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We probably won’t really ever know that leak. And we may even hear someone like Broaddus just throw it (a rumor) out there for the need of shock value.
- But I could believe in the reason they liked Hill over Thornhill,
- I could believe they thought Xavier and Thornhill were the same FS safety types and that since they were still high on Xavier, which added even more to their Hill decision.,
- I could believe that behind the scenes, they really did had Isiah Johnson was rated ahead of Michael Jackson,.. but another question would be by how much was the margin ?
Was it a slight or clear heads/shoulder margin?

When it comes to the NFL draft, that’s the time when we tend to hear whispers and rumors of how much they may have coveted and considered this guy and that guy.. as well as how much they DON’T like this/that guy.
Maybe Lonnie Johnson was one of the CBs of interest, just as I had also heard (thru media speak) they coveted and considered Michigan State’s Justin Layne as well.
Sometimes it may be about whose inside sources and what guy at draft time do you prefer to trust with the swirling rumors and hear say whispers. Some could prefer Broaddus, .. some could prefer Dallas Morning News’ David Moore (my preferred choice)

Isiah Johnson over Tony Pollard ? Hmm, that’s gonna be decided in the very near future. And at draft time I admit I was surprised we drafted a specialty gimmick back that high (most draft profiles had him as a late round pick)

But if I had to place my chips on the gamble table when it comes to the actual player selection, round value, evaluation, even moving on or down the rounds. - I prefer to bet on Wil McClay’s group every time.
Also with the way we drafted and informed OG Connor McGovern, who admitted that he never had an appointed meeting with Cowboys (meaning no pre-draft 30 visit, private work out or pro day meeting) and only last ran into him at NFL combine proved that apparently it will not always be set in cement that the pre-draft visits will be an automatic.
 

Hennessy_King

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We probably won’t really ever know that leak. And we may even hear someone like Broaddus just throw it (a rumor) out there for the need of shock value.
- But I could believe in the reason they liked Hill over Thornhill,
- I could believe they thought Xavier and Thornhill were the same FS safety types and that since they were still high on Xavier, which added even more to their Hill decision.,
- I could believe that behind the scenes, they really did had Isiah Johnson was rated ahead of Michael Jackson,.. but another question would be by how much was the margin ?
Was it a slight or clear heads/shoulder margin?

When it comes to the NFL draft, that’s the time when we tend to hear whispers and rumors of how much they may have coveted and considered this guy and that guy.. as well as how much they DON’T like this/that guy.
Maybe Lonnie Johnson was one of the CBs of interest, just as I had also heard (thru media speak) they coveted and considered Michigan State’s Justin Layne as well.
Sometimes it may be about whose inside sources and what guy at draft time do you prefer to trust with the swirling rumors and hear say whispers. Some could prefer Broaddus, .. some could prefer Dallas Morning News’ David Moore (my preferred choice)

Isiah Johnson over Tony Pollard ? Hmm, that’s gonna be decided in the very near future. And at draft time I admit I was surprised we drafted a specialty gimmick back that high (most draft profiles had him as a late round pick)

But if I had to place my chips on the gamble table when it comes to the actual player selection, round value, evaluation, even moving on or down the rounds. - I prefer to bet on Wil McClay’s group every time.
Also with the way we drafted and informed OG Connor McGovern, who admitted that he never had an appointed meeting with Cowboys (meaning no pre-draft 30 visit, private work out or pro day meeting) and only last ran into him at NFL combine proved that apparently it will not always be set in cement that the pre-draft visits will be an automatic.
Gotta love this team's 25 year old philosophy that you can't have 2 cover safeties lol. Thornhill and Woods could have both been on the field at the same time. Neither could be worse in run support than Jeff Heath is or Byron Jones was the year earlier at safety. Thornhill was the layup pick at 58. Time will tell but this front office failed not trying to replace Jeff Heath in the offseason.
 

xwalker

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I'd ask if you can find similar evidence of the same level of interest in CB Michael Jackson prior to the draft?

If not, then it's clear to me that Jackson was Plan B after Johnson was selected immediately after the Pollard pick.

Then we watch to see if Pollard is everything the Cowboys think and hope he can be and how Johnson and Jackson compare as cornerbacks.

Just like we waited to see how Taco and TJ Watt compared.



We as fans only get a fraction of the details of who the Cowboys meet with during pre-draft evaluations.

I'm not saying that the Cowboys did or did not prefer Isaiah Johnson to Michael Jackson.

My point is that the connection to Isaiah Johnson all appears to connect back to the U of H Pro Day that Kris Richard attended.

Broaddus and crew repeatedly said after the draft that the Cowboys really liked CB Lonnie Johnson who went in the 2nd round.

I don't have any info on the Cowboys meeting with Lonnie Johnson.

U of H Pro Day
The Cowboys were at the U of H Pro Day to see DT Ed Oliver. That's been repeatedly reported, especially by Broaddus & crew.

Isaiah Johnson decided to introduce his parents to Kris Richard at the Pro Day.

The Cowboys coaches attend Pro Days more often when it's relatively close. They seem to go to Baylor, A&M, etc. most years.

Reviewing the Miami coaching staff, the most connections were to Texas, Louisiana State and Mississippi State.

It's probably just coincidence, but the Cowboys have drafted players from those schools in recent years.
Dak Mississippi State
X.Woods Louisiana State
Connor Williams Texas

Two Players from Miami Drafted
When a team drafts two players from the same school it's often revealed later that that the team had some connection with that school.

Either they visited there or somebody with the Cowboys had a relationship with somebody at Miami.

Since both were defensive players, the most obvious guess would be a defensive coach or Head Coach at Miami.

Miami CB Technique - Similarities to Kris Richard Style
The other interesting note on the possible Miami connection, is the technique played by Michael Jackson at Miami.


One of the first things I noticed in Jackson's game footage was the similarity in technique to the Kris Richards / Richard Sherman CB press technique.

The kick-step press technique is not common but it's very obvious for anyone that's studied Richard Sherman in Seattle.

Michael Jackson at Miami and the other CB opposite Jackson both played a press technique that was similar to the kick-step press.

Side Note: DC.com Crew - Before and After the Draft
While the DC.com crew is often wrong before the draft when they speculate, they are often correct when they reveal "inside" info after the draft

I remember back in 2009 right after Seattle traded up a few picks ahead of the Cowboys and picked OC Max Unger.

Mickey immediately said Unger was the Cowboys target and that proved to be correct.

Mickey had not said much about Unger prior to the pick; although he obviously knew that was the target.

It turns out that Jerry blabbed to Mike Holmgren that they were going to draft Unger.

Seattle was probably going to trade up for Unger anyway, but they might or might not have beat the Cowboys to the punch.
 

xwalker

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We probably won’t really ever know that leak. And we may even hear someone like Broaddus just throw it (a rumor) out there for the need of shock value.
- But I could believe in the reason they liked Hill over Thornhill,
- I could believe they thought Xavier and Thornhill were the same FS safety types and that since they were still high on Xavier, which added even more to their Hill decision.,
- I could believe that behind the scenes, they really did had Isiah Johnson was rated ahead of Michael Jackson,.. but another question would be by how much was the margin ?
Was it a slight or clear heads/shoulder margin?

When it comes to the NFL draft, that’s the time when we tend to hear whispers and rumors of how much they may have coveted and considered this guy and that guy.. as well as how much they DON’T like this/that guy.
Maybe Lonnie Johnson was one of the CBs of interest, just as I had also heard (thru media speak) they coveted and considered Michigan State’s Justin Layne as well.
Sometimes it may be about whose inside sources and what guy at draft time do you prefer to trust with the swirling rumors and hear say whispers. Some could prefer Broaddus, .. some could prefer Dallas Morning News’ David Moore (my preferred choice)

Isiah Johnson over Tony Pollard ? Hmm, that’s gonna be decided in the very near future. And at draft time I admit I was surprised we drafted a specialty gimmick back that high (most draft profiles had him as a late round pick)

But if I had to place my chips on the gamble table when it comes to the actual player selection, round value, evaluation, even moving on or down the rounds. - I prefer to bet on Wil McClay’s group every time.
Also with the way we drafted and informed OG Connor McGovern, who admitted that he never had an appointed meeting with Cowboys (meaning no pre-draft 30 visit, private work out or pro day meeting) and only last ran into him at NFL combine proved that apparently it will not always be set in cement that the pre-draft visits will be an automatic.

Hill vs Thornhill
It's not uncommon for teams to take a DL over DB if they have similar ratings.

They liked Thornhill and would have taken him if they didn't take Hill.

The issue with Thornhill specifically is that his ideal position is FS.

Would Thornhill be an upgrade at SS? Yes, but if evaluated ONLY as a Strong Safety, they probably wouldn't have him rated as a 2nd round pick.

They would have taken him which shows that they would ignore "need" to an extent and draft Thornhill because of his overall talent.

Pollard
The draft media don't do a great job ranking players that don't fit an exact mold or role.

The draft media didn't really know if Pollard would be a RB or WR.

Even NFL teams likely didn't rate Pollard as high as if he had played only WR or only RB.

The Cowboys in recent years have looked for players that "slip through the cracks" in some way such that a good player is available later in the draft.

They've commonly drafted DL that were in the wrong scheme/position in college (i.e. A college 3-4 DE that is a better fit as a 3-tech 4-3 DT in the NFL).


Pollard vs CB
They likely saw Isaiah as a raw developmental CB with great measurable(s) but also a significant gamble in regards to developing as an NFL player.

With Johnson's Wow measurable(s), he wouldn't be in the 4th round if all teams didn't have concerns about his ability to develop into an NFL starter.

Pollard on the other hand is highly likely to contribute even if he never becomes a big time starter at RB or WR.


Kris Richard CBs
In general KR's scheme can accommodate some CBs that would NOT be a great fit in other schemes; therefore, there will always be some CBs later in the draft that are of interest to the Cowboys with KR as the coach.

The KR scheme values size/length and deep speed but puts less value on short area quickness than many other schemes/coaches.

Pre-Draft Visits
With only 30 National Visits per year, they'll always draft players that were not on the visit list.

They don't just use the visits on players they "love". Sometimes they use them to evaluate players that have question marks in terms of mental-makeup or that type of issue.

Physical ability can be evaluated from film study, but mental-makeup is much better evaluated in person by coaches than by just asked previous coaches for their opinions.
 

xwalker

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So we were at Houston's pro day to see Ed Oliver, an 100% lock to be a top 12 pick when we dont even pick until #58?

Lol wow
Somebody in the DC.com crew claimed the Cowboys would trade up using 2020 picks if Oliver dropped to around #20.

Oliver wasn't a guaranteed top 12 when the process started.

There was a significant amount of "bad" film on him because O of H played him at 1 or 0 tech.

Also Oliver's size is far from ideal. He is 6'1-7/8", 281 with very short arms.

Some defensive schemes just don't put a high value on DL with those measurable(s).

Also Oliver had an on-field altercation with the Head Coach in college and generally had attitude/maturity question marks.

His Pro Day performance caused him to shoot up the rankings.

Will McClay learned some lessons with mistakes the Cowboys made in the draft prior to him being promoted to the top personnel job held by anyone not named Jones.

In 2012 they traded up and drafted Claiborne because the Rams called Jerry and offered the trade for less than chart value.

The problem was that the Cowboys never expected to have a chance to draft Claiborne and had never really investigated his mental make-up.

It turned out that he struggled to learn the defensive scheme and didn't have the Alpha type personality needed to play CB in the NFL.

McClay explained this in an interview. For him, top of the draft players are just too valuable to NOT completely analyze/investigate just in case they end up with the opportunity to draft one.

The U of H Pro Day is just a day trip anyway.

We as Cowboys fans should be happy that the Cowboys are better at doing their homework now than they were several years ago.
 

KingintheNorth

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I think we have the most paranoid, defensive front office.

I obviously pay way more attention to Cowboys news than any other team, but I swear, I do not see other teams constantly have so many articles (or fans) attempting to justify their draft choices.

Usually it's "we heard the Patriots really liked him" or "Detroit was about to trade up and get him" whenever there is a (publicly) perceived reach or questionable draft pick. Now it's "did we really even like him". Just draft your guys and stand by your pick. Other GM's will flat out say we drafted the guy we liked and not give a darn about the fan base's opinion on it.

We have been pretty obvious with our draft picks lately. We have done a much better job of actually selecting players, but we seem to telegraph them fairly often. Based on that trend and the fact we spent extra time with Isaiah, AND if you were watching the war room live, you saw that Richard was not thrilled a few moments before the Raiders selected Isaiah.

My guess (and that is all it is) is that it was close between Pollard and Johnson, and the Cowboys decision makers felt Johnson was the safer bet falling to the next Cowboys pick. The fact that we traded out of that next pick is also telling.

It happens, you miss out on guys you wanted. No reasons for excuses.
 

Stash

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Hill vs Thornhill
It's not uncommon for teams to take a DL over DB if they have similar ratings.

They liked Thornhill and would have taken him if they didn't take Hill.

The issue with Thornhill specifically is that his ideal position is FS.

Would Thornhill be an upgrade at SS? Yes, but if evaluated ONLY as a Strong Safety, they probably wouldn't have him rated as a 2nd round pick.

They would have taken him which shows that they would ignore "need" to an extent and draft Thornhill because of his overall talent.

Pollard
The draft media don't do a great job ranking players that don't fit an exact mold or role.

The draft media didn't really know if Pollard would be a RB or WR.

Even NFL teams likely didn't rate Pollard as high as if he had played only WR or only RB.

The Cowboys in recent years have looked for players that "slip through the cracks" in some way such that a good player is available later in the draft.

They've commonly drafted DL that were in the wrong scheme/position in college (i.e. A college 3-4 DE that is a better fit as a 3-tech 4-3 DT in the NFL).


Pollard vs CB
They likely saw Isaiah as a raw developmental CB with great measurable(s) but also a significant gamble in regards to developing as an NFL player.

With Johnson's Wow measurable(s), he wouldn't be in the 4th round if all teams didn't have concerns about his ability to develop into an NFL starter.

Pollard on the other hand is highly likely to contribute even if he never becomes a big time starter at RB or WR.


Kris Richard CBs
In general KR's scheme can accommodate some CBs that would NOT be a great fit in other schemes; therefore, there will always be some CBs later in the draft that are of interest to the Cowboys with KR as the coach.

The KR scheme values size/length and deep speed but puts less value on short area quickness than many other schemes/coaches.

Pre-Draft Visits
With only 30 National Visits per year, they'll always draft players that were not on the visit list.

They don't just use the visits on players they "love". Sometimes they use them to evaluate players that have question marks in terms of mental-makeup or that type of issue.

Physical ability can be evaluated from film study, but mental-makeup is much better evaluated in person by coaches than by just asked previous coaches for their opinions.

This again reads like you’re working back from a conclusion you want to reach
 

Stash

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I think we have the most paranoid, defensive front office.

I obviously pay way more attention to Cowboys news than any other team, but I swear, I do not see other teams constantly have so many articles (or fans) attempting to justify their draft choices.

Usually it's "we heard the Patriots really liked him" or "Detroit was about to trade up and get him" whenever there is a (publicly) perceived reach or questionable draft pick. Now it's "did we really even like him". Just draft your guys and stand by your pick. Other GM's will flat out say we drafted the guy we liked and not give a darn about the fan base's opinion on it.

We have been pretty obvious with our draft picks lately. We have done a much better job of actually selecting players, but we seem to telegraph them fairly often. Based on that trend and the fact we spent extra time with Isaiah, AND if you were watching the war room live, you saw that Richard was not thrilled a few moments before the Raiders selected Isaiah.

My guess (and that is all it is) is that it was close between Pollard and Johnson, and the Cowboys decision makers felt Johnson was the safer bet falling to the next Cowboys pick. The fact that we traded out of that next pick is also telling.

It happens, you miss out on guys you wanted. No reasons for excuses.

And yet we always seem to get them.
 

QuincyCarterEra

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Somebody in the DC.com crew claimed the Cowboys would trade up using 2020 picks if Oliver dropped to around #20.

Oliver wasn't a guaranteed top 12 when the process started.

There was a significant amount of "bad" film on him because O of H played him at 1 or 0 tech.

Also Oliver's size is far from ideal. He is 6'1-7/8", 281 with very short arms.

Some defensive schemes just don't put a high value on DL with those measurable(s).

Also Oliver had an on-field altercation with the Head Coach in college and generally had attitude/maturity question marks.

His Pro Day performance caused him to shoot up the rankings.

Will McClay learned some lessons with mistakes the Cowboys made in the draft prior to him being promoted to the top personnel job held by anyone not named Jones.

In 2012 they traded up and drafted Claiborne because the Rams called Jerry and offered the trade for less than chart value.

The problem was that the Cowboys never expected to have a chance to draft Claiborne and had never really investigated his mental make-up.

It turned out that he struggled to learn the defensive scheme and didn't have the Alpha type personality needed to play CB in the NFL.

McClay explained this in an interview. For him, top of the draft players are just too valuable to NOT completely analyze/investigate just in case they end up with the opportunity to draft one.

The U of H Pro Day is just a day trip anyway.

We as Cowboys fans should be happy that the Cowboys are better at doing their homework now than they were several years ago.

He was a consensus top 10 pick, I said top 10 just for some leeway.

They weren't at UH pro day for Oliver, didn't need to type all of that out.
 

xwalker

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He was a consensus top 10 pick, I said top 10 just for some leeway.

They weren't at UH pro day for Oliver, didn't need to type all of that out.

Making declarations does NOT help you to be correct.

Few if any people believe your rhetoric.
 

QuincyCarterEra

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Making declarations does NOT help you to be correct.

Few if any people believe your rhetoric.

Nobody believes that the Cowboys were at UH pro day for Oliver.

They absolutely believe mine over yours. Of which your basis has no merit.

Using bold, red, and capitalizing random words does NOT help you to be less wrong.
 

QuincyCarterEra

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Making declarations does NOT help you to be correct.

Few if any people believe your rhetoric.
What's funny is your made the declaration that we went there for Oliver in your OP as a fact, and that he was our favorite player in the draft as a fact. Despite there being no chance of us being able to to draft him and our well chronicalled infatuation with Johnson.

So I agree that you shouldn't make any baseless declarations.
 

Mr_437

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Did the Cowboys have CB Isaiah Johnson rated as highly as the media claimed?


They might have but I have not seen any solid indication of how much they liked Isaiah Johnson.

They met with him at his Pro Day. They were there primarily to see DT Ed Oliver who was widely known to be one of their favorite players in the draft.

There was tons of media speculation that the Cowboys loved Johnson, but it seemed like a lot of that was assumption based on his size and the one meeting.

I've seen comments that Kris Richard "got shafted" because they didn't draft a Safety in the 2nd and didn't draft Isaiah Johnson with the pick used on Tony Pollard. KR has said he wanted the DT in the 2nd. I have not seen/heard any comments by KR about not drafting Isaiah Johnson.

I don't have him as listed as one of the pre-draft 30 visits and attending HS and college in Houston wouldn't qualify him as a local visit (CB Westry was a pre-draft visit and was signed as a udfa).

The Cowboys picked Michael Jackson in the 5th round and his measurable(s) were not much below Johnson's. The Cowboys commented that they had multiple played they liked in the 4th and later which is why they traded down with the second of the two 4th round picks.

Speculation was that they traded down because Johnson was gone; however, I wonder if they had a similar rating on both Johnson and Jackson.

Jackson was considered to be a bit further along in his development as a CB than Johnson who had originally played WR. Johnson played 23 games after switching to CB with 15 starts. Jackson was always a CB and played in 51 games.

Broaddus & minions said that the Cowboys had CB Lonnie Johnson rated highly. There was speculation that the Cowboys had hoped he might fall to their 3rd round pick but he was drafted in the 2nd.


Isaiah Johnson & Michael Jackson
Height

Johnson 6-2
Jackson 6-1

Weight
Johnson 208
Jackson 210

Forty
Johnson 4.40
Jackson 4.45

Ten
Johnson 1.55
Jackson 1.60

Arms
Johnson 33
Jackson 32-1/2

Hands
Johnson 08-3/4
Jackson 9-3/4

Wingspan
Johnson 79-1/8
Jackson 77-1/4

Age
Johnson 23.4
Jackson 22.3
Truth be told, I didn't like either. Lonny Johnson was alright. That's the fun of the draft, we get to see who pans out.
 

xwalker

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This again reads like you’re working back from a conclusion you want to reach

Except I said most of it before the draft.

I said prior to the draft that Hill over a Safety made sense.

The Parcells concept of big over small has been much discussed here.

I said before the draft that Thornhill was one of my favorite Safeties, but that they need an SS and he projects best to FS.

I said before the draft that Isaiah Johnson was very raw but with interesting measurable(s).

I said before the draft and in other years that the draft media rankings on tweener position players is often way off.

I said before the draft and in previous years that the Cowboys need a RB/slot-WR combo type player with speed.

I've talked often about the Kris Richard scheme and CB requirements.

I've pointing out in the past that with only 30 visits, not all draft picks will come from the visit list.
 
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