Differences between 3-4 defenses.

BAT;3406337 said:
You're joking right?

No, I'm not. The formations are the same thing. Both Parcells and Phillips employed a 4 lineman, 2 linebacker formation with an extra cornerback playing in the nickel. The normal OLBs (in our current case, D-Ware and Anthony Spencer, back then it was DWare and Gregg Ellis) become DEs on the line in the nickel, and our best pass rushing lineman come in at DT.

The faster linebacker at coverage (and sometimes back then, Roy Williams) comes in at nickel linebacker and Bradie James stays in at the other linebacker spot for run support.

The only difference between the two is the fact that Wade sometimes keeps a single safety high in favor of an additional cornerback, plus he is more clever as far as line stunts and stuff for the pass rush. Also, Parcells was stubborn sometimes and kept the base 3-4 out there on 3rd down, and Wade uses his nickel package on downs other than 3rd at times.
 
That's a big question. It wouldn't be possible to list them all, as a lot of trash is tried and fails.

I've read about 3-4 schemes that double team an OL every play to try and knock that OL on its ***, creating a big hole. It's kind of hit or miss since they aren't playing the gaps first. Ones where even the LBs can be asked to two-gap, as part of a hybrid where different players two-gap while everyone else has single gaps.

There have been a lot of fail schemes tried in football.
 
sureletsrace;3406232 said:
Anyone care to elaborate or have a link that shows the differences between say the Phillips 3-4 and the Parcells 3-4?

How many variations of the 3-4 are there?
parcells DL men played the two gap system, where they lined up over the OL man assigned and they had responsibility for the two gaps on either side. that's why people called it a read and react, since they had to wait for the play to develop and then make a play. it required big DL men to hold up at the line, then disengage and attack the gap based on where the play was going. It also required big Line backer to engage the OL men (specially MLBs). they had to take on the blockers, diagnose the play and then disengae and make the play.

in phillip's 3-4 they play more of a one gap assignment on the DL. the DL men line up in a gap on the inside or outside shoulder of an OL man and they shoot the gap. the LBs (specially MLBs) also have similar responsibility to attack the other gaps. there are 7 gaps and the front 7 concievably should be able to cover every gap. it requires more of a quick DL men than big ones that engage the OL. but you still need some of the big bodies to attack and require double team to free up the LBs to attack the line, the RB or the passer.

pittsburgh plays a mix of the two. the nose plays on top of the center and has two gap assignement, but it requires a big and fast player like Hampton. the DEs play either a gap or on top of the respective OL player. Sometimes although they line up ontop of the OL man, they know before the snap which gap they will attack, because it allows the LBs to loop around and attack the other gap. it draws the OL to one side or other depending on the play design.

the basic difference between 3-4 and 4-3 is that your rushers are your LBs that play stand up, maybe a bit smaller (except that ware is about 265 similar to some 4-3 DEs). it helps you disguise your pass rush so the offense has to account for every player and every possibility.
 
SaltwaterServr;3406240 said:
Parcells was more the "hold the point of attack" read and react 3-4. Wade wants his men into the lines, through the lines, and wreaking havoc in the enemy's backfield.
parcells players had two gap assignement and had to diagnose the play and then attack a gap. Wade assigned a gap to the DL man and asks them to attack. he covers the other gaps with LBs attacking them.
 
Rampage;3406256 said:
I like Baltimore's or also known as Rex Ryan's 3-4 the best.
his defense requires shut down corners who can plan press coverage and go one on one to allow him to attack the line with 8 men. basically using the 3-4 to disguise his pass rush and he comes with 8, whichmakes it even more difficult. I think our version of the rex ryan defense is the 4-6 we played by putting and extra man in the box and attacking the line. very similar.

we just didn't have the personnel to pull it off, but as the year wore on we played it a little more. you also need a really good saftey to help you out. that's where we lack ....
 
AMERICAS_FAN;3406335 said:
Parcells' version did not work in Dallas because Lwrence Taylow wasn't playing it and Bill Bellicheck wasn't coaching it. Wade Phillips is a TRUE 3-4 defnsive coach, and that's a big difference.
we also didn't have the right talent. not only those teams were devoid of talent we switched from 4-3 to 3-4. for gawd's sake we had ELlis playing OLB. the thought of him being isolated against a TE would send shudders down my back.

we only had james who was worthy at the MLB, we had Ayodele, Fujita as our other LBs. Fujita is a classic 4-3 OLB and was a misfit in the 3-4. Ayodele, what can I say. plus we lacked CBs to play aggressive. we only had newmann and I can't recall who played opposite of him. Pat Watkins was starting Saftey and the other guy was Roy Biscuit ('nuff said).

so the thought was keep the ball in front of you. mix in some blitzes (timely). force the other team to go the leangth of the field and take advantage of their mistakes.

he also believed in execution. carry out your assignments and execute and you will win the war, although you may lose a battle now and then.

looking back, I can't believe how devoid of talent was the team before parcells. its taken several good years of drafting to replenish the team and we can see the results.

with that said. I think it was time for BP to go.
 
Here we go... Thanks Phoenix.

The "True" 3-4

"The 3-4 defense is what the Giants used to play. There was a nose tackle, two defensive ends lined up on the tackles, two outside linebackers and then two [inside linebackers], both covering the guards. One of those linebackers is a fourth rusher. That is the 3-4 - the only 3-4 defense."
-- Charlie Weis, former assistant coach to Bill Parcells​
The "only" 3-4 defense? What would Weis call all the other 3-4 schemes in the league today with three down linemen? Granted, it's mostly an argument of semantics, but Weis (and others) would argue that a true 3-4 defense is one where the three defensive linemen are responsible for every gap on the offensive line - a 2-gap line. They'd call the other variations - the Phillips variations, the Collier and Belichick variations, the LeBeau and Capers variations - hybrid schemes of a true 3-4, since they frequently use 1-gap alignments that are the hallmark of modern 4-3 fronts.

All this talk about gaps again. Is it really that big a deal? Absolutely. Though the box scores and stat boxes of the 3-4 schemes often look the same - OLB with big sack numbers and (usually) less notable defensive linemen, the underlying philosophies are very different.

Let's look at the "true" 3-4 first:

08idp_figure_9.gif

People chuckled at John Madden's description of Parcells' 3-4 as a "double bubble" scheme a few years ago, but it's a good visual to keep in mind and a term often used by defensive coaches. The 2-gap alignment leaves both offensive guards uncovered by defensive linemen - a "bubble". Each ILB covers the "bubble" left by the defensive line.

This kind of 3-4 requires a specific class of player. The defensive linemen have to be monsters, able to handle the lineman in front of them and control the gap to either side. Ideally, they're disruptive enough that the guards have to help block them. The inside linebackers need to be big enough to take on a guard on every play if the linemen aren't good enough to keep them clean. It's Parcells' "Planet Theory" - i.e. there are only so many men on the planet big and athletic enough to play defensive lineman in the NFL. To some extent, that theory also applies to the linebackers in a 2-gap 3-4 scheme. Guys like Dat Nguyen sometimes won Parcells over, but he wasted no time in drafting bigger players with a little less speed like Bradie James and Bobby Carpenter and Kevin Burnett to replace smaller players like Dexter Coakley.

Parcells liked the 2-gap 3-4 for many reasons. Its design makes it more difficult for the offensive linemen to get an angle on his defenders. It makes it easier to drop eight men into coverage and prevent big plays. It makes it easier for an OLB in a two point stance to get an angle in pass rush and generate pressure with just four rushers and avoid the coverage risk of an all-out blitz.

But the 2-gap 3-4 front is more difficult to play in today's NFL. Those planet-like defensive linemen are getting harder and harder to find. Players generated by today's college defenses are built for speed. How many can hold the point of attack against a monstrous OT and control two gaps? Not many. How many 245-250 pound linebackers are agile enough to elude a guard on every play and still close down on a RB with 4.45 speed? Very few.
As a result, the majority of the 3-4 fronts gaining favor today are based on the 1-gap schemes designed by Bum Phillips or those that use other wrinkles to bring pressure and disguise coverage. Other than Parcells' Cowboy and Dolphin teams in recent seasons, every other contemporary 3-4 has strayed from the 2-gap 3-4 in one way or another. The true 3-4 front has become a dinosaur of sorts as an every down defense.


Bum Phillips and the 1-gap 3-4



To hear Bum Phillips tell it, developing his version of the 3-4 defense wasn't rocket science:
"Coaching is pretty simple really. If you don't got something, find something you do got. Really we didn't have but one [defensive lineman] - [Hall of Famer] Elvin [Bethea] - until we got Curley [Culp] in the middle of that season. Then we had two. What we did have was four real good linebackers so all I done was find a way to get our best players on the field."
Like the Fairbanks-Bullough 3-4 scheme that was taking hold in New England at the same time, Phillips was looking to contain the run and create mismatches in pass rush. Though Phillips based his scheme on the same concepts that the New England coaches did, he favored an attacking style. He used a number of one-gap techniques in his front seven, stunting and slanting his lineman to cause pressure and using an OLB - "Dr. Doom" Robert Brazile, who was LT before Lawrence Taylor came into the league - frequently as a fourth pass rusher. In many ways, Phillips' scheme was a 4-3 with four players in a two point stance.

That attacking, aggressive style of play has stood the test of time better than the read-and-react style for much the same reason that the under 4-3 has. It allows players to attack the offense, specifically by disguising its fourth (and fifth or sixth) pass rusher and the coverage behind. In fact, there are a lot of underfront concepts in the Phillips 3-4.

08idp_figure_10.gif

Unlike the true 2-gap 3-4 in the last post, there's no clear "bubble" in a 1-gap front. The strong side end slides down in the guard-tackle gap and the nose tackle slants to the weak side center-guard gap. The weak side end may or may not be head-up on the tackle, sometimes aligning in a 5-technique.


Again, for the reasons we've talked about in prior posts about Bruce Smith and Warren Sapp, moving the defensive lineman just a few inches changes the philosophy entirely. By comparing the two diagrams, it's easy to see how the mindset of the defensive linemen changes. It's clear that the two inside linebackers can be, if the linemen are disruptive at all, better protected from the blocks of interior linemen. You can see the lines of attack for a delayed ILB blitz or how each OLB might get a jump by shifting one defensive end to the outside of an offensive tackle.
IDP ASIDE
We covered the importance of avoiding most 3-4 defensive ends above. Briefly, even in tackle heavy scoring systems, you should consider rostering only those defensive ends who are quick and strong enough to consistently get off blocks. Usually, they'll play for teams that play a lot of 1-gap responsibility (DAL, SD, SF in 2009).
But the fear of the 3-4 in IDP circles, which was once rightly reserved for the defensive line, had also recently been pervading the linebacker group. It's not hard to pinpoint what happened. After a 128 solo tackle season in 2005 in his first year as a starter, Jonathan Vilma saw his solo tackle production plummet in 2006 after the Jets moved to a 3-4 front. Ignoring the numbers of Ray Lewis, Keith Brooking, Jamie Sharper and Donnie Edwards earlier this decade, panic set in - even amongst longtime veterans of IDP leagues. Putting the bulk of the blame on the scheme, IDPers projected Vilma's failures to extend to all 3-4 ILBs - including one Patrick Willis. We all know how that turned out. The same blind spot hurt owners who ignored Jerod Mayo in 2008.
Enough of the cautionary tale. It is reasonable to be wary of some 3-4 ILBs. They will face more offensive linemen blocks than many of their 4-3 counterparts. They'll have direct competition from their teammate at the other ILB position. Some may not play in all nickel packages. However, as we've seen above, some 3-4 fronts behave very much like 4-3 fronts. In fact, most 1-gap 3-4 fronts allow the WILB (by convention the RILB) the opportunity to match a 4-3 MLB in tackle production. Crossing a 1-gap 3-4 WILB off your draft boards or dropping them a tier or more due only to "3-4 fear" will often be a huge mistake.
How big a mistake? Well, in 17 player-seasons between 2002 and 2008, the RILB out-tackled the LILB in a 1-gap 3-4 front 14 times. In those 17 player-seasons, the RILB has topped 100 solo tackles 11 times and had more than 90 solos 13 times. 75 percent of the time, the team RILBs have combined for 90 or more solos. The average number of solo tackles for the 1-gap RILB in that data set. 99. A huge mistake indeed. Be wary of the rare RILB that doesn't play every down (i.e. Matt Wilhelm and Akin Ayodele in 2007 and 2008). But file away the lessons taught by Vilma and Willis.
Even 2-gap ILBs can have above-average IDP value. Again, it's usually the WILB that holds better value, but the disparity isn't as great. Chris Draft, Jay Foreman, James Farrior and Andra Davis have all held LB2+ value in recent seasons. Bradie James was a stud during the second half of 2008. In all 3-4 fronts, but particularly the 2-gap and hybrid fronts, an ILB that can get off blocks and contribute in coverage (and pass rush) is going to hold value. The 2-gap 3-4 can be a hindrance, though, so the skill set and responsibility within the defense is important.
What does that deeper understanding of schemes predict for 2009? It would strongly suggest that D.J. Williams and Patrick Willis are good bets for big production. Assuming the Steelers provide enough tackle opportunity, Lawrence Timmons should have good value. Plenty of 2-gap and hybrid 3-4 ILBs should continue to be productive - Channing Crowder, Jerod Mayo, Bart Scott, D'Qwell Jackson, Karlos Dansby, Derrick Johnson among others. And we'll need to watch the Dallas defense very closely during the preseason. Keith Brooking has been productive as an every-down WILB before (2002 in Atlanta). If he plays in the nickel, he could be a sneaky sleeper and cut down on the numbers Bradie James was putting up in late 2008.
The under shifted 3-4 front, with or without a 2-gap end, is just one of many potential variations a coordinator may align his front seven. There are all kinds of potential alignments. In fact, a coach influenced by both flavors of the 3-4 might be tempted to meld both concepts with traditional 4-3 ideas and create a monster playbook with more than 50 fronts. And pull it off with amazing success.
 
Thanks for bringing that article back up...a really good read. Makes me even more hyped to see this year's version of the Wade Defense.
 
Bump for a great football-related thread.

The one thing I would add is that Wade is very good at tailoring his defense to the individual talents of the players he has in any year. If he has DEs that are better as space eaters and a quick NT (like we have now), he calls things differently than if he has Ted Washington and Bruce Smith. Not every coach is willing to do that, nor is every system flexible enough to allow it.

And what an arrogant quote from Charlie Weis. Typical, though.
 
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