DMN Blog: Irvin: Rod Woodson not a first ballot Hall of Famer

TellerMorrow34

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DuaneThomas71;2620168 said:
Actually, I watched him as far back as when he was getting burned on a regular basis in Atlanta. Flipper Anderson used to look forward to their encounters because he absolutely owned him.

He was Antonio Cromartie with charisma.


I'm guessing, just off the little bit of research that Adam did for you, that you must have been watching different games then the ones that were actually going on during that time.
 

Cowboys2008

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I see nothing wrong in this comment. If Jim Brown saw some weakling DL who got in whom he knew without a doubt he could make a punk of and run directly through, he might think the same thing. Just as any HOF player might when a name comes up to join him in the hall.

Aikman might see a DB that he considers really predictable. A DB might see a QB who told him the "tale" all day long every time they played each other. And on and on.

HOF's got this right. It's there team. They get to nit pick if they want on the new guys joining them.

And who knows, maybe Woodson is just another instance of a player getting his accolades over the years simply due to the team he played for. Maybe he's not in the same "league" as say an Irvin who literally changed a position by the style of his own play. And to Irvin, maybe Woodson actually is a joke who he doesn't think belongs.

One thing about Irvin I've at least noticed.. He gives credit to greatness, and when it's deserved. In fact, that seems to be what he's kinda about. Maybe all he's about. He doesn't seem to really concern himself with any type of lesser players. And basically that's what made him such a great leader, too, when you come down too it. He expects the best. And from Woodson he never saw that personally, cause as someone else just stated, Irvin used to eat Woodson alive everytime they played.
 

TellerMorrow34

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Cowboys2008;2620445 said:
I see nothing wrong in this comment. If Jim Brown saw some weakling DL who got in whom he knew without a doubt he could make a punk of and run directly through, he might think the same thing. Just as any HOF player might when a name comes up to join him in the hall.

Aikman might see a DB that he considers really predictable. A DB might see a QB who told him the "tale" all day long every time they played each other. And on and on.

HOF's got this right. It's there team. They get to nit pick if they want on the new guys joining them.

And who knows, maybe Woodson is just another instance of a player getting his accolades over the years simply due to the team he played for. Maybe he's not in the same "league" as say an Irvin who literally changed a position by the style of his own play. And to Irvin, maybe Woodson actually is a joke who he doesn't think belongs.

One thing about Irvin I've at least noticed.. He gives credit to greatness, and when it's deserved. In fact, that seems to be what he's kinda about. Maybe all he's about. He doesn't seem to really concern himself with any type of lesser players. And basically that's what made him such a great leader, too, when you come down too it. He expects the best. And from Woodson he never saw that personally, cause as someone else just stated, Irvin used to eat Woodson alive everytime they played.

My biggest argument with that line of thinking is that it's also very easy to say that Irvin only was as great as he was cause of the team around him as well. It's impossible to say any differently because his first two years in 88 and 89 he was either hurt or nothing extremely special.

So if he says, or anyone else for that matter, that Rod is only got all these stats cause of the team around him then people will point out that, "Well you only got yours cause you had Emmitt running through gaping holes for huge amounts of yardage, and cause Jay forced people to worry about him and gave you a lot more one on one oppurtunities."

The 'cause of the team around him' excuse has way to many flaws in it.
 

Temo

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Sorry, but I agree with Irvin. It's not that I think he's a bad player, but really I don't see much dominance from him. He never changed how the cowboys game planned, that's for sure.

I think in the end, when Ed Reed retires, he will be recognized as a better player than Rod Woodson for sure.
 

BehindEnemyLinez

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DuaneThomas71;2619979 said:
That's really stretching it.

Woodson was a better cover corner than Deion or Darrell Green.
Hahahaha...c'mon man, you honestly believe that?!
DuaneThomas71;2619998 said:
Yes, he was.

Deion was vastly overrated as a cover guy. This guy's reputation was more bloated by the media than almost any other athlete in history. He got beat, and beat quite a bit, actually.

He's remembered as being much better than he is because of his pure athleticism that he put on display whenever he had the ball in his hands.
????? You cannot have seen Prime play...at least not before he went to the Deadskins!!!

DuaneThomas71;2620168 said:
Actually, I watched him as far back as when he was getting burned on a regular basis in Atlanta. Flipper Anderson used to look forward to their encounters because he absolutely owned him.

He was Antonio Cromartie with charisma.
You must have some personal gripe against Sanders to compare him to an overrated youngin who had one lucky season where picks just happened to fall right into his hands. Cromartie couldn't hold Deion's jock as of today...
AdamJT13;2620193 said:
Anderson played nine games against Deion. It's doubtful that all of Anderson's catches came while Deion was guarding him, but let's look at how he did in those games anyway. Anderson averaged 60.9 yards per game and never had a 100-yard game against Deion's teams. He averaged 2.6 catches and never had more than five catches (once). In five of those games, he had two catches or less. And he scored a total of three touchdowns against Deion's teams, with one touchdown three times and no touchdowns the other six.

Apparently, your definition of "absolutely owned" is different from everyone else's.

And Deion's shutdown numbers during his prime years were absolutely incredible. STATS LLC has been tracking what cornerbacks allow (targets, catches, yards, touchdowns) since 1995, and Deion's numbers were FAR superior to anyone else's. Woodson blew out his knee in 1995 and moved to safety for the rest of his career, and he still allowed far more completions, yards and touchdowns than Deion did, and Deion was a 1-on-1 cornerback often matched up with the opponent's top receiver.

In 1996 alone, Woodson allowed more catches (58), yards (607) AND touchdowns (four) than Deion did in the entire 1996, 1997 and 1998 seasons COMBINED (54 catches, 582 yards and zero touchdowns). And in 1998, Woodson was among the leaders in yards allowed (907) to go with the 62 catches and five touchdowns he allowed.

This would be a good time for you to say those stats don't matter, because they just destroyed your argument.
Pure, unadulterated OWNAGE!!!
 

Maikeru-sama

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I don't know what is more annoying in this thread, Michael Irvin's comments or the man love going on :eek: :laugh2: .
 

Idgit

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DuaneThomas71, you better come back to this thread and take your medicine before posting elsewhere on CZ.

When someone makes you their new *****, you need to either acknowledge it and move on, or defend yourself. 8 hours is more than enough time for you to do one or the other. Adam put a dress on you and a ribbon in your hair. You're going to let him get away with that? Where's your spine, man?
 

DallasEast

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Idgit;2620583 said:
DuaneThomas71, you better come back to this thread and take your medicine before posting elsewhere on CZ.

When someone makes you their new *****, you need to either acknowledge it and move on, or defend yourself. 8 hours is more than enough time for you to do one or the other. Adam put a dress on you and a ribbon in your hair. You're going to let him get away with that? Where's your spine, man?
When I read that, it reminded me of the scene in Predator when the alien threw Billy down on the tree limb, bent down, ripped his spine out of his back and kicked his body down to the forest floor.

Hey iJordanTaber! AdamJT13 has done Predator'ed U, man! :mad:







:rolleyes: :)
 

dfense

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bbgun;2619711 said:
Pettiness, thy name is Irvin. Nobody cares what you think, Mike. Nor do I remember Woodson popping off about your abilities or your voluminous scrapes with the law. Try to follow his example.
I care what Mike thinks.

And he was the best player the Cowboys ever had. They haven't been any good since the day he left. Fact.
 

Phrozen Phil

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Personally, I'd take Woodson as a HOF candidate before I'd take Lynn Swann. Most overrated receiver.....ever.
 

Idgit

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DallasEast;2620602 said:
When I read that, it reminded me of the scene in Predator when the alien threw Billy down on the tree limb, bent down, ripped his spine out of his back and kicked his body down to the forest floor.

Hey iJordanTaber! AdamJT13 has done Predator'ed U, man! :mad:

:rolleyes: :)

A lot of time goes into smacking someone down and supporting it with evidence. Totally bush-league to crawl away from it afterward and not even dignify the ***-whupping with a response. Even a 'we can just agree to disagree, then' would be amusing for the rest of us and show a little respect.

I imagine he's staying away from the thread at this point to convince himself that his opinions still might have relevance elsewhere. I wanted to bump it again to make sure it doesn't fall off the top page for a while longer yet.
 

TellerMorrow34

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I'll be pretty shocked if the guy comes back into this thread and attempts to say anything in regards to that discussion. There is nothing to agree to disagree about because Adam took the guys very hollow, and quite frankly either completely ignorant or just down right stupid, claims and smashed them into bits with facts.

The guy has nothing he can say other than, "Wow, I was wrong. You got me." and move on.
 

Idgit

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BraveHeartFan;2620919 said:
I'll be pretty shocked if the guy comes back into this thread and attempts to say anything in regards to that discussion. There is nothing to agree to disagree about because Adam took the guys very hollow, and quite frankly either completely ignorant or just down right stupid, claims and smashed them into bits with facts.

The guy has nothing he can say other than, "Wow, I was wrong. You got me." and move on.

This is exactly right. But that's what he should do. It's not that hard, and everybody accepts that because we all talk out of our pie-hole now and then.

But if you won't Cowboy up, you should have your nose rubbed in it on the front page for a while so that the point gets made and everybody knows it.
 

BruceWayne

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He was a great DB and deserves to be in the hall but Mike used to burn his *** up and Woodson knows it
 

DuaneThomas71

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AdamJT13;2620193 said:
Anderson played nine games against Deion. It's doubtful that all of Anderson's catches came while Deion was guarding him, but let's look at how he did in those games anyway. Anderson averaged 60.9 yards per game and never had a 100-yard game against Deion's teams. He averaged 2.6 catches and never had more than five catches (once). In five of those games, he had two catches or less. And he scored a total of three touchdowns against Deion's teams, with one touchdown three times and no touchdowns the other six.

Apparently, your definition of "absolutely owned" is different from everyone else's.

Anderson wasn't exactly a guy who averaged 1500 yards per season, so 60.9 yards/game was a pretty good average for him. 60.9 yards on 2.6 catches...23.4 yards/catch average. Actually a pretty accurate representation--deep balls down the sidelines, against Deion. Big plays like those are important in the outcome of a football game.

Tell me, do you think Terrence Newman had an excellent game against Pittsburgh against Santonio Holmes?


And Deion's shutdown numbers during his prime years were absolutely incredible. STATS LLC has been tracking what cornerbacks allow (targets, catches, yards, touchdowns) since 1995, and Deion's numbers were FAR superior to anyone else's. Woodson blew out his knee in 1995 and moved to safety for the rest of his career, and he still allowed far more completions, yards and touchdowns than Deion did, and Deion was a 1-on-1 cornerback often matched up with the opponent's top receiver.
Funny, I don't see pass interference penalties in there. What a great stat that must be.

Deion lined up almost exclusively on the split end (he was a right corner). Teams rarely have a corner actually follow a particularly name receiver around...they generally play on one side of the field. By virtue of this, he almost always had deep help, with the free safety over the top.

Woodson didn't move to safety until 1998 when he signed with Baltimore.

And enumerate on this safety thing. Do most safeties, from wherever you're getting these stats, "allow" more catches, yards, and touchdowns than corners?

In 1996 alone, Woodson allowed more catches (58), yards (607) AND touchdowns (four) than Deion did in the entire 1996, 1997 and 1998 seasons COMBINED (54 catches, 582 yards and zero touchdowns). And in 1998, Woodson was among the leaders in yards allowed (907) to go with the 62 catches and five touchdowns he allowed.
You just pulled those numbers out of your rear end...or they did. One or the other.

In 1998, the Cowboys defense gave up 3767 passing yards. You're telling me Deion gave up merely 582 yards in THREE YEARS COMBINED? Where are all these other yards coming from? Were the other corners sooooo bad that even with Deion giving up a ridiculously low total, they still ranked near the bottom in pass defense? Or were all 'them zones responsible for everything?

Woodson was well past his prime by that point, anyway.

Too many holes in your attempt to prove football things with statistics. How exactly are they measuring this statistic? Are they putting a slant pass that ended up going 80 yards, run against Rod Woodson when he was giving a 10 yard cushion, as a completion against him?

I don't think you even know yourself, but hey, if it suits your little fantasy world where you can quantify everything in football, it's wonderful, right?


This would be a good time for you to say those stats don't matter, because they just destroyed your argument.
The fact that you rely so heavily on statistics when it comes to football, a sport that statistics simply do not work for, is proof that you really don't understand the game. You should try following baseball instead. Baseball is the perfect sport for stats.

In football, you can throw a 2 yard screen pass and have it go 80 yards.
 

DuaneThomas71

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Oh, and apologies for not sitting around my computer at all hours waiting for a response.

Internet forums...serious business.
 

Idgit

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And Duane fights back. Love it.

Duane, as long as you bring it, you won't get guff from me. It's the guys who come by, say something stupid for the sake of getting attention, then slink off with their tails tucked who get under my skin.
 

Shake_Tiller

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Woodson was a good football player and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. To say he was the equal of Sanders as a cover corner... forget that. I'm not a big Sanders fan, but he was worlds better than Woodson as a cover corner. I don't need stats to know that.
 
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