News: DMN: Machota: Cowboys' most pressing issues and why there's no way I would let Garrett go

[NewsBot]

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[khiladi]

How can you say your running off coaches when Garrett has been here for eight years? He's the only one Jerry hasn't run off..

It's Garrett running off coaches to save his own skin..

His homers act like he's been here only one year proof to this disaster.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

How can you say your running off coaches when Garrett has been here for eight years? He's the only one Jerry hasn't run off..

It's Garrett running off coaches to save his own skin..

His homers act like he's been here only one year proof to this disaster.

12-4 is all the homers acknowledge. Its as if 8-8, 8-8, 8-8 never happened. And now they act as if 4-12 didnt even happen. Excuses make it all go away as if it never happened.

 

[TheDude]

I've seen this "He works well Jerry" as a new theme. I have no idea what that means. Who didnt work well with Jerry? Switzer seemed to work well, So did Campo, Did Wade not work well? Parcells only has positive things to say about the org?

What coach is going to come in and not work well with Jerry? Harbaugh? Do people think Jerry will hire someone and then set them up to fail? Or a coach will take the job and mandate full control? Is Jason garrett the only coach who can work with Jerry?

I hate throwaway statements

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

I've seen this "He works well Jerry" as a new theme. I have no idea what that means. Who didnt work well with Jerry? Switzer seemed to work well, So did Campo, Did Wade not work well? Parcells only has positive things to say about the org?

What coach is going to come in and not work well with Jerry? Harbaugh? Do people think Jerry will hire someone and then set them up to fail? Or a coach will take the job and mandate full control? Is Jason garrett the only coach who can work with Jerry?

I hate throwaway statements

So I guess you dont buy the "Jerry respects Garrett" line as if he didnt respect any other coaches and its some once in a lifetime thing with Jerry?

 

[TheDude]

So I guess you dont buy the "Jerry respects Garrett" line as if he didnt respect any other coaches and its some once in a lifetime thing with Jerry?

LOL. I guess I have yet to uncover the Love Potion #9 that is the sole factor in brilliance

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

LOL. I guess I have yet to uncover the Love Potion #9 that is the sole factor in brilliance

Love Potion #9 = Secret Sauce?

 

[Idgit]

12-4 is all the homers acknowledge. Its as if 8-8, 8-8, 8-8 never happened. And now they act as if 4-12 didnt even happen. Excuses make it all go away as if it never happened.

He's exactly right.

And you're wrong that 'homers' only acknowledge 12-4. It's just that you don't want to hear what they actually say.

I've been in this conversation, many times. My argument is that we'd had a bottom tier defense for those 8-8 years, and in a league where you need to both pass effectively and stop the pass effectively, only doing one of those things well gets you what you ought to expect: 8-8.

 

[Beast_from_East]

12-4 is all the homers acknowledge. Its as if 8-8, 8-8, 8-8 never happened. And now they act as if 4-12 didnt even happen. Excuses make it all go away as if it never happened.

4-12 was just bad luck, how many times do I have to explain this to you?

 

[Idgit]

4-12 was just bad luck, how many times do I have to explain this to you?

It was an injury to the QB that impacted our passing effectiveness, and a dramatic downturn in our ability to take the ball away, which made it a lot easier for other teams to pass effectively against us.

I'm not sure how much either of those things had to do with luck, but you guys seem to prefer answering pretend arguments nobody's making and ignoring the ones people actually put forward to discussing the actual causes.

It's a shame, because I think the takeaway problem is an interesting one. It ought to let you take more shots at the coaching, if nothing else. And there are lots of other angles that might come into play that we could maybe complain about, as well. It seems like we're maybe missing a golden opportunity here. Maybe we'll be able to get into it during the offseason, eventually.

 

[TheDude]

He's exactly right.

And you're wrong that 'homers' only acknowledge 12-4. It's just that you don't want to hear what they actually say.

I've been in this conversation, many times. My argument is that we'd had a bottom tier defense for those 8-8 years, and in a league where you need to both pass effectively and stop the pass effectively, only doing one of those things well gets you what you ought to expect: 8-8.

It used to be Romo who got the 8-8 moniker and blame, then people realized the defense was a big issue. Now somehow it seems that its morphing to Garrett wasnt responsible as he is associated with offense.

I'll agree that the pass defense was a major issue, but Garrett is supposed to be HC of the team not HC of offense. He owns that. He owns the Rob Ryan hire, the keeping of Campo and Maxie, the lack of importance of decent safety play and all other things. He owns the "we are 3-4 team" I mean 4-3 team. We need Kiffen, Marinelli, We want a Seattle style defense with a novel twist - turd safeties. We need Man corners to play off the ball 80% of the time.


Below is the ranking of opponents QB Rating and YPA. So as many know, you get the Opp Pass Rating below 20th ranked and it resulted in a winning season.

Opp Pass Rating Opp YPA Record
2003 5 4 10-6
2004 28 25 6-10
2005 9 14 9-7
2006 19 26 9-7
2007 8 6 13-3
2008 20 5 9-7
2009 18 16 11-5
2010 29 28 6-10
2011 25 24 8-8
2012 29 25 8-8
2013 27 27 8-8
2014 18 26 12-4
2015 20 24 4-12

Basically 24-25th average in his tenure.

The team performance should stop with him. I think he deserves a large share of blame in the 2012 fiasco of $50M Carr and 2 draft picks for Deion part deaux - mainly because "We need CBs" was hung on Rob Ryan - who was summarily shown the door.

So if anyone puts 8-8 outside his purview then part of that pass def improvement for 12-4 is not his doing either.

For turnovers, fumbles are 50/50, luck i playing a role in recovery but likely not causing one. But Ints is where it has gotten worse from what youd hope to see. BUt when you field slow CBs and the 2 worst starting safeties in the NFL, turnovers are not going to be a regular occurrence. Since 2012, the cowboys have secondary has has no player with over 4 in a season (Newman in 2011). Carr had 3 in each of his first and second year and zero point zero in year 4 and 5. It is really an amazing display of futility when your two biggest Interception total in a season if from Carter (5), Lee (4 - twice) and Newman, who was shown the door after 2011.




Total

LB/DL

CB Safety
2011 15 5 7 3
2012 7 1 5 1
2013 15 5 7 3
2014 18 9 4 5
2015 8 3 2 3
63 23 25 15

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

It was an injury to the QB that impacted our passing effectiveness, and a dramatic downturn in our ability to take the ball away, which made it a lot easier for other teams to pass effectively against us.

I'm not sure how much either of those things had to do with luck, but you guys seem to prefer answering pretend arguments nobody's making and ignoring the ones people actually put forward to discussing the actual causes.

It's a shame, because I think the takeaway problem is an interesting one. It ought to let you take more shots at the coaching, if nothing else. And there are lots of other angles that might come into play that we could maybe complain about, as well. It seems like we're maybe missing a golden opportunity here. Maybe we'll be able to get into it during the offseason, eventually.

See, I dont get the blame game for takeaways on the coaching staff. I think you have to play the game as if you cant count on getting turnovers and when you get them its a bonus. Why you might ask? Because no matter how much you practice trying to get them you cant count on getting them. Takeaways are like the lottery and should be viewed as such. And if you're coaching staff is counting on them as part of a winning formula rather than game planning and scheming to attack the opponents weaknesses and dialing up plays during the game at the right time to gain an advantage, you've already put yourself behind.

But I can point the finger right at the coaches for not putting the healthy players they have weekly in a position to succeed. I can be the mirror for their pathetic ability to get a couple wins or more from backups QB's while the rest of the league's coaches could do it, and one team even winning their division playing 4 different scrubs at QB during the season. Oh, we can justify the excuses and recognize their validity but we cant justify what has been a Red staple for 5 years, and that is a coach that gives this team ZERO advantage on game day.

The Bucs fired Lovie, not because of the 4 game improvement this year, but because of a defense that the FO didnt feel performed as well as it should have and some other things that indicated the coaches should have done a better job. See, its not just about wins and losses, but how the team performs. How prepared the team looks. How disciplined and fundamental they look. And the sad reality is that for the majority of Red's 5 yrs here this tea often looks unprepared and lacking in some of the most basic things.

So I wouldnt point the finger at coaches for lack of turnovers because that would be like holding somebody accountable for not buying the winning powerball ticket. But for the inability to coach and scheme and put players in the best position to succeed, I'll wave that finger and be their mirror all day.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

The bottom line with Red is we have 4 out of 5 seasons where his apologists spend all their time defending him and making excuses for poor seasons rather than being able to legitimately pat him on the back for a job well done where he rose above and beat expectations rather than falling short.

 

[iceberg]

I've seen this "He works well Jerry" as a new theme. I have no idea what that means. Who didnt work well with Jerry? Switzer seemed to work well, So did Campo, Did Wade not work well? Parcells only has positive things to say about the org?

What coach is going to come in and not work well with Jerry? Harbaugh? Do people think Jerry will hire someone and then set them up to fail? Or a coach will take the job and mandate full control? Is Jason garrett the only coach who can work with Jerry?

I hate throwaway statements

well i had no idea what "win or go home" games stats meant either until someone had an agenda.

go figure.

 

[khiladi]

It used to be Romo who got the 8-8 moniker and blame, then people realized the defense was a big issue. Now somehow it seems that its morphing to Garrett wasnt responsible as he is associated with offense.

I'll agree that the pass defense was a major issue, but Garrett is supposed to be HC of the team not HC of offense. He owns that. He owns the Rob Ryan hire, the keeping of Campo and Maxie, the lack of importance of decent safety play and all other things. He owns the "we are 3-4 team" I mean 4-3 team. We need Kiffen, Marinelli, We want a Seattle style defense with a novel twist - turd safeties. We need Man corners to play off the ball 80% of the time.


Below is the ranking of opponents QB Rating and YPA. So as many know, you get the Opp Pass Rating below 20th ranked and it resulted in a winning season.

Opp Pass Rating Opp YPA Record
2003 5 4 10-6
2004 28 25 6-10
2005 9 14 9-7
2006 19 26 9-7
2007 8 6 13-3
2008 20 5 9-7
2009 18 16 11-5
2010 29 28 6-10
2011 25 24 8-8
2012 29 25 8-8
2013 27 27 8-8
2014 18 26 12-4
2015 20 24 4-12

Basically 24-25th average in his tenure.

The team performance should stop with him. I think he deserves a large share of blame in the 2012 fiasco of $50M Carr and 2 draft picks for Deion part deaux - mainly because "We need CBs" was hung on Rob Ryan - who was summarily shown the door.

So if anyone puts 8-8 outside his purview then part of that pass def improvement for 12-4 is not his doing either.

For turnovers, fumbles are 50/50, luck i playing a role in recovery but likely not causing one. But Ints is where it has gotten worse from what youd hope to see. BUt when you field slow CBs and the 2 worst starting safeties in the NFL, turnovers are not going to be a regular occurrence. Since 2012, the cowboys have secondary has has no player with over 4 in a season (Newman in 2011). Carr had 3 in each of his first and second year and zero point zero in year 4 and 5. It is really an amazing display of futility when your two biggest Interception total in a season if from Carter (5), Lee (4 - twice) and Newman, who was shown the door after 2011.




Total

LB/DL

CB Safety
2011 15 5 7 3
2012 7 1 5 1
2013 15 5 7 3
2014 18 9 4 5
2015 8 3 2 3
63 23 25 15

The problem with Garrett-homers always trying to blame the defense, with excuses such as the defense didn't produce enough TOs to win the game, is they somehow miss all the TOs the Garrett-led offense was committing during this time.

This year for example, the offense turned the ball over thirty plus times. So even if the defense didn't produce TOs, they still held the opponents to low-scoring outputs while the Dallas offense kept handing the ball back to the opponents.

In Rob Ryab's last year for example, when Garrett said the defense didn't give the offense enough chances to score via TOs, the offense committed 29 TOs.

In his first year, Rob Ryan generated 25 TOs, close to ten more than the 2012 season and the offense for once actually had less TOs at 21 and they still went 8-8.

So the real question should be, what exactly are you doing Garrett with the opportunities given to you on offense? If you believe TOs play such a big part in victories as it relates to a defense, then why is your offenses always handing the ball back to opposing defenses?

The reality is these are nothing but excuses for Garrett... The offense always struggled and much of the success was predicated on Romo abandoning the game plan and making things happen. But what happens is its not sustainable, because Romo can't make it happen on his own, particularly against good teams so a game where he throws multiple INTs happens and that performance is used as some baseless example that his chokes.. And Garrett escapes blame once again..

 

[Idgit]

It used to be Romo who got the 8-8 moniker and blame, then people realized the defense was a big issue. Now somehow it seems that its morphing to Garrett wasnt responsible as he is associated with offense.

I'll agree that the pass defense was a major issue, but Garrett is supposed to be HC of the team not HC of offense. He owns that. He owns the Rob Ryan hire, the keeping of Campo and Maxie, the lack of importance of decent safety play and all other things. He owns the "we are 3-4 team" I mean 4-3 team. We need Kiffen, Marinelli, We want a Seattle style defense with a novel twist - turd safeties. We need Man corners to play off the ball 80% of the time.


Below is the ranking of opponents QB Rating and YPA. So as many know, you get the Opp Pass Rating below 20th ranked and it resulted in a winning season.

Opp Pass Rating Opp YPA Record
2003 5 4 10-6
2004 28 25 6-10
2005 9 14 9-7
2006 19 26 9-7
2007 8 6 13-3
2008 20 5 9-7
2009 18 16 11-5
2010 29 28 6-10
2011 25 24 8-8
2012 29 25 8-8
2013 27 27 8-8
2014 18 26 12-4
2015 20 24 4-12

Basically 24-25th average in his tenure.

The team performance should stop with him. I think he deserves a large share of blame in the 2012 fiasco of $50M Carr and 2 draft picks for Deion part deaux - mainly because "We need CBs" was hung on Rob Ryan - who was summarily shown the door.

So if anyone puts 8-8 outside his purview then part of that pass def improvement for 12-4 is not his doing either.

For turnovers, fumbles are 50/50, luck i playing a role in recovery but likely not causing one. But Ints is where it has gotten worse from what youd hope to see. BUt when you field slow CBs and the 2 worst starting safeties in the NFL, turnovers are not going to be a regular occurrence. Since 2012, the cowboys have secondary has has no player with over 4 in a season (Newman in 2011). Carr had 3 in each of his first and second year and zero point zero in year 4 and 5. It is really an amazing display of futility when your two biggest Interception total in a season if from Carter (5), Lee (4 - twice) and Newman, who was shown the door after 2011.




Total

LB/DL

CB Safety
2011 15 5 7 3
2012 7 1 5 1
2013 15 5 7 3
2014 18 9 4 5
2015 8 3 2 3
63 23 25 15

I completely agree that he's responsible for the defensive miscues, too. But the reality is there had been a personnel problem there during those earlier seasons that explains the 8-8s. Which is why his supporters aren't forgetting them. They're viewing them in context.

He did blow the hiring of Rob Ryan. I said so at the time. And Monte Kiffen was a bizarre mistake, too. He took longer than he should have to organize his staff, but it wasn't that the team under performed to 8-8. They were about where they should have been during those years. Fans just don't like to hear it.

12-4 was about where the revised roster with a healthy Romo belonged. Then this year happened. The QB problems I understand. I don't like it, we were caught with pants down there and should not have been, but there's a legitimate shortage of starting QBs in the league.

It's the defensive takeaway problem I don't get. That's Garrett's responsibility, too, and not fixing it will cost him his job next season and rightfully so. But I do wish I had a better explanation for why it happened. There are so many reasons a team or a unit can underperform. The coach gets responsibility for all of them, but not all of them are necessarily in his control.

 

[Idgit]

The bottom line with Red is we have 4 out of 5 seasons where his apologists spend all their time defending him and making excuses for poor seasons rather than being able to legitimately pat him on the back for a job well done where he rose above and beat expectations rather than falling short.

That's not the bottom line at all. Sometimes you can do your job well to get a bad team to 8-8. They aren't poor seasons.

The HC isn't responsible for fans with unrealistic expectations. His job is to get the most with the players the organization can assemble for him. Sometimes 8-8 really is a job well done.

And I agree it took longer than it should have to fix the defensive roster. He's definitely made mistakes along the way.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

That's not the bottom line at all. Sometimes you can do your job well to get a bad team to 8-8. They aren't poor seasons.

The HC isn't responsible for fans with unrealistic expectations. His job is to get the most with the players the organization can assemble for him. Sometimes 8-8 really is a job well done.

And I agree it took longer than it should have to fix the defensive roster. He's definitely made mistakes along the way.

As we watched the seasons unfold there were games we SHOULD HAVE WON but didnt and coaching played a big part in that IMO, so 8-8 wasnt a job well done. We should have had 3 division titles, or at least one or two. We can agree to disagree. I was on Red's bandwagon till the end of the 3rd 8-8 season and got off, not because of the record, but how we got to those records.

 

[Idgit]

As we watched the seasons unfold there were games we SHOULD HAVE WON but didnt and coaching played a big part in that IMO, so 8-8 wasnt a job well done. We should have had 3 division titles, or at least one or two. We can agree to disagree. I was on Red's bandwagon till the end of the 3rd 8-8 season and got off, not because of the record, but how we got to those records.

That's fine. He's made his share of game day mistakes, too. I'd agree with that. But it's not the case that his supporters are blind to everything that's happened before. We just happen to see some of the reasons for losses in a different context. I happen to think the roster and the cap and, generally, Jerry Jones, have been the bigger hurdles we've had to overcome. Others think it's the coach. I'm ok disagreeing on that point.

 

[yimyammer]

I've seen this "He works well Jerry" as a new theme. I have no idea what that means. Who didnt work well with Jerry? Switzer seemed to work well, So did Campo, Did Wade not work well? Parcells only has positive things to say about the org?

What coach is going to come in and not work well with Jerry? Harbaugh? Do people think Jerry will hire someone and then set them up to fail? Or a coach will take the job and mandate full control? Is Jason garrett the only coach who can work with Jerry?

I hate throwaway statements

Right or wrong, I interpreted "works well with jerri" to mean Jason didn't/doesn't appear to be a power hungry coach bent on forcibly being known as the guy in charge and seeking personal credit in the process. My thought/hope was that if Garrett could be a good coach that didn't mind jerri running his mouth and taking credit for things he didn't do, then perhaps it could work because it was an obvious deal killer between jerri and Jimmy and to a similar extend with Parcels, so much so that how the public dispensing of credit would be allocated if a Super Bowl was won were addressed and made part of Parcels contract before he was hired.