Do we trade our 1st round pick?

[fortdick]

I don't know... how much is the last pick in the first round really worth? jk

590! LOL

I like your thought process!

 

[followthestar]

obviously i would prefer to see an OL taken with our first pick, about #22, but it may be that the guy we've targeted is a guy going at say #35-45. trading down 10 spots looks good. also this is supposed to be a class rich in OL talent, which lessens the risks of trading down. this is not a time to be releasing Flo or Allen, so the left looks solid. A top Center would be nice, but where is the top Center projected to go? That leaves a true RT and hopefully bring in some RG talent, probably thru the draft for both. Our first two picks, wherever they fall, will be an OL and an OLB - book it!

 

[AbeBeta]

How about two 2nds like Allen and Adams? Too much risk hanging all your hopes on a single limeman, first, or second round! Rogers may be back next year after he gets the arm fixed. If he doesn't play here, he will somewhere.

Thing is, we neeed to solidiy the line, and everything else will be fine. Let's get a few good prospects and see who steps up instead of hanging it all on one guy!

a) Rogers is cut. he not back here next year. He is on IR because you can not formally cut an injured player. And it is his knee.

b) Allen, Adams, Solomon Page, Jacob Rogers, Al Johnson, Shane Hannah. Those are our last 6 2nd round O-line picks. Some good, some crap.

c) Here's the guys who we missed out on by trading down in 2004. Losman, Marcus Tubbs Seahawks, Steven Jackson Rams, Ahmad Carroll Packers, Chris Perry Bengals, Jason Babin, Chris Gamble Panthers, Michael Jenkins, Kevin Jones Lions, Rashaun Woods 49ers, Ben Watson Patriots, Karlos Dansby Cardinals, Chris Snee Giants, Igor Olshansky Chargers, Junior Siavii Chiefs, Teddy Lehman Lions, Ricardo Colclough Steelers, Daryl Smith Jaguars, Ben Troupe Titans, Tatum Bell Broncos, Travis LaBoy Titans.

If that is the quality of player we pass on then trading down is a good idea. But again, we can't draft for need. We've got to go best player available. If you leave a stud on the board so you can gamble on later picks then you are going to regret the move.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

So you want to get say a 2nd and 3rd and end up with another Rogers and Peterman.

And you do take OL in the first. When there are guys worth the picks.

I'm not against trading down -- but I don't want us to leave a stud player -- at any position -- on the board so we can get depth in later rounds.

Well, I don't know that you can say if we picked higher, we would be succesful. I mean, other teams pick linemen in the later rounds and have success so I don't know that picking higher is any real guarante. I just think that were getting to a point now where we can be more specific in our needs. The process of evaluating talent is another question all together. Basically, if the player you target or evaluate as best value at your pick is there, then take him. If the difference is minimal, then trade down and aquire value in later rounds or next years draft.

 

[fortdick]

a) Rogers is cut. he not back here next year. He is on IR because you can not formally cut an injured player. And it is his knee.

I thought it was his shoulder. I am prolly wrong.

If that is the quality of player we pass on then trading down is a good idea. But again, we can't draft for need. We've got to go best player available. If you leave a stud on the board so you can gamble on later picks then you are going to regret the move.

Ahhh, here is the difference! I think you draft for need. When we had Aikman, we didn't take a QB even though they were the BPA. Same next year. We don't need a DE, or a CB, but we need OL and OLB. I think you have to look at what you need, who fills that need, and what is the very least you have to give up to get him.

In the 2007 draft, we need to start thinking QB. Maybe a trade this year can help our OLine and put us in a better position to get the QB we want, instead of the best one left on the board.

 

[AbeBeta]

Ahhh, here is the difference! I think you draft for need. When we had Aikman, we didn't take a QB even though they were the BPA. Same next year. We don't need a DE, or a CB, but we need OL and OLB. I think you have to look at what you need, who fills that need, and what is the very least you have to give up to get him.

And if KC had thought that way, we would have been facing a very weak team yesterday. After all, why draft an RB if you've got the leagues best in his prime on your team?

QB is a little different -- since that is one position where you can't rotate guys at all.

 

[Hiero]

Depends. If there's a guy we want/need at the pick I would just get him. If we think we can get a similar player or the actual player we want lower down, it only makes sense to trade down for extra picks. On the other hand, if there was a really special player that we could use I wouldnt mind trading UP either.

 

[Verdict]

If we traded the #1, im not sure how that would equate as to how many # 2's or 2 and 3 rounds. But if we ended up with 5 picks over the 2nd and 3rd round it might be worth it rather than the 3 we would get if we kept it.

would be good to draft 2 OLineman and 2 LB's and a FS on day 1.

But that would require a team giving up a 2 and 3 for a 1, and our #1 is going to be about 20th overall. I dont know if that is feasable.

I'm hoping we pick dead last my friend.

 

[Portland Fanatic]

I'm hoping we pick dead last my friend.

Two benefits to that.......most important we WON!

The other....you sit back and let a top player that slipped fall in your lap. Always happens if you are not targeting a position...

 

[Verdict]

FS would be a less concerning issue if we had the Line to open up a dominant running game. Believe me, Larry Johnson is a great back, but do you really think he carved us and all those other teams up so easily. That line dominates. If we could get that type of running game, our current defense would be more than adequate. Get JJ or MB3 averaging just under 5ypc, i guarantee we are going to the SB.

Two words. Willie Roaf. When he came back healthy K.C.'s running game got a lot better instantly running the same back(s) as before.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And if KC had thought that way, we would have been facing a very weak team yesterday. After all, why draft an RB if you've got the leagues best in his prime on your team?

QB is a little different -- since that is one position where you can't rotate guys at all.

Johnson was so good, they were going to trade him to us for AB. I mean, he's good and I don't have a problem if you got a guy that you rate as top shelf but honestly, if the difference between one guy and three others is the spelling of there names, it only makes sense to take advantage of a trade if available.

 

[jbsg02]

In order to get a deal like we got with Buffalo (A 1st, 2nd, and 5th for a 1st) there has to be a player there that some team is desperate to get, like Buffalo was with Losman. Maybe if a team falls in love with someone like Omar Jacobs and he is there then you might be able to swing a deal like that, but it depends more on the players available then just trading down just for the hell of it.

 

[31smackdown]

Two words. Willie Roaf. When he came back healthy K.C.'s running game got a lot better instantly running the same back(s) as before

Just to play devils advocate here... I have two more words... Jacob Rogers...*cringe*

Quick... someone start scouting all the northeast schools, you know someone will be coming in from Pitt, Penn St., BC,...

This should be a good place to start... :

2005 ALL-BIG EAST FIRST TEAM


OFFENSE
Pos. Player School Cl. Ht. Wt. Hometown/High School/Junior College

WR **Joshua Tinch Louisville Sr. 6-3 223 Albany, Ga./Westover

WR Greg Lee Pittsburgh Jr. 6-2 200 Tampa, Fla./Chamberlain

OT Garin Justice West Virginia Sr. 6-8 300 Gilbert, W.Va./Gilbert

OG John Glass Rutgers Sr. 6-5 300 Allentown, Pa./University of New Haven

C Dan Mozes West Virginia Jr. 6-4 280 Washington, Pa./Washington

OG Jason Spitz Louisville Sr. 6-4 308 Jacksonville, Fla./Bolles

OT Travis Leffew Louisville Sr. 6-4 301 Danville, Ky./Boyle

TE Clark Harris Rutgers Jr. 6-6 255 Manahawkin, N.J./Southern Regional

QB **Brian Brohm Louisville So. 6-4 224 Louisville, Ky./Trinity

RB Michael Bush Louisville Jr. 6-3 250 Louisville, Ky./Male

RB Andre Hall USF Sr. 5-10 205 St. Petersburg, Fla./Dixie Hollins JC

PK Art Carmody Louisville So. 5-8 181 Shreveport, La./Loyola College

KR/PR Willie Foster Rutgers Jr. 5-10 170 Miami, Fla./Miami Central



DEFENSE

DL Elvis Dumervil Louisville Sr. 6-0 256 Miami, Fla./Miami Jackson

DL Ryan Neill Rutgers Sr. 6-3 265 Wayne Hills, N.J./Wayne Hills

DL Ryan LaCasse Syracuse Sr. 6-3 255 Stoughton, Mass./Stoughton

DL Ernest Hunter West Virginia Sr. 6-4 295 Burke, Va./Lake Braddock

LB James Hargrave Connecticut Sr. 5-11 224 Pleasantville, N.J,/St. Joseph

LB H.B. Blades Pittsburgh Jr. 6-0 240 Plantation, Fla./Plantation

LB Kevin McLee West Virginia Jr. 6-1 245 Uniontown, Pa./Uniontown

CB Bernard "Josh" Lay Pittsburgh Sr. 6-2 195 Aliquippa, Pa./Valley Forge Military Acad. (Pa.)

CB Darrelle Revis Pittsburgh So. 6-0 190 Aliquippa, Pa./Aliquippa

S Anthony Smith Syracuse Sr. 6-1 187 Hubbard, Ohio/Hubbard

S Jahmile Addae West Virginia Sr. 6-0 205 Valrico, Fla./Riverview

S Mike Lorello West Virginia Sr. 6-1 200 Powell, Ohio/Worthington-Kilbourne

P Brendan Carney Syracuse Jr. 6-5 202 Valley Forge, Pa./Malvern Prep







2005 ALL-BIG EAST SECOND TEAM



OFFENSE
Pos. Player School Cl. Ht. Wt. Hometown/High School/Junior College

WR Mario Urrutia Louisville Fr. 6-6 220 Louisville, Ky./Fern Creek

WR Tres Moses Rutgers Sr. 5-10 191 Delray Beach, Fla./Atlantic

OT Theodric Watson USF Jr. 6-5 295 St. Petersburg, Fla./Lakewood

OG Jeremy Sheffey West Virginia Jr. 6-3 290 Catlettsburg, Ky./Boyd County

C John Miller USF Sr. 6-0 275 Belle Glade, Fla./Glades Central

OG Frank Davis USF Sr. 6-4 310 Republic of Panama/Kilpatrick

OT Charles Spencer Pittsburgh Sr. 6-5 330 Poughkeepsie, N.Y./Trinity-Pawling School

TE Dan Murray Connecticut Jr. 6-5 244 Gloucester, Mass/Gloucester

QB Tyler Palko Pittsburgh Jr. 6-2 220 Imperial, Pa./West Allegheny

RB Brian Leonard Rutgers Jr. 6-2 235 Gouverneur, N.Y./Gouverneur

RB Steve Slaton West Virginia Fr. 5-10 195 Levittown, Pa./Conwell-Egan

PK Josh Cummings Pittsburgh Sr. 5-11 205 Newhall, Calif./College of the Canyons JC

KR/PR Antonio Lewis West Virginia So. 5-10 190 Waldorf, Md./Stone



DEFENSE

DL Rhema Fuller Connecticut Jr. 6-3 283 Cocoa, Fla./Cocoa

DL Deon McPhee Connecticut Sr. 6-2 284 Abaco, Bahamas/Abaco Cen./The Bolles School

DL Montavious Stanley Louisville Sr. 6-2 321 Albany, Ga./Westover

DL Terrence Royal USF Sr. 6-3 255 Tampa, Fla./Wharton

LB Corey Smith Cincinnati Fr. 6-1 215 Salem, N.J./Salem

LB Brandon Johnson Louisville Sr. 6-5 218 Birmingham, Ala./Minor

LB Stephen Nicholas USF Jr. 6-3 225 Jacksonville, Fla./Lee

CB Mike Mickens Cincinnati Fr. 6-0 165 Huber Heights, Ohio/Wayne

CB Mike Jenkins USF So. 6-0 200 Bradenton, Fla./Southeast

CB Anthony Mims West Virginia Sr. 6-0 190 Los Angeles, Calif./Fairfax

S Tez Morris Pittsburgh Jr. 5-10 190 Hamilton, Ohio/Hamilton

S Johnnie Jones USF Sr. 6-3 215 Sarasota, Fla./Booker

S Eric Wicks West Virginia Jr. 6-1 215 Pittsburgh, Pa./Perry

P Phil Brady West Virginia Sr. 5-9 185 Fairfax, Va./Robinson







** - unanimous selection

 

[AbeBeta]

Johnson was so good, they were going to trade him to us for AB. I mean, he's good and I don't have a problem if you got a guy that you rate as top shelf but honestly, if the difference between one guy and three others is the spelling of there names, it only makes sense to take advantage of a trade if available.

a) that is totally irrelevant -- since the draft was long before the rumored trade.

b) that trade is pure speculation. it is the brain child of profootballtalk.com -- they published the rumor and lots of crap reporters ran with it. your "if there is smoke there is fire" thinking is silly. do you believe every rumor you hear? for example, do you think Troy Aikman is gay too?

 

[jbsg02]

Just to play devils advocate here... I have two more words... Jacob Rogers...*cringe*

Quick... someone start scouting all the northeast schools, you know someone will be coming in from Pitt, Penn St., BC,...

This should be a good place to start... :

2005 ALL-BIG EAST FIRST TEAM


OFFENSE
Pos. Player School Cl. Ht. Wt. Hometown/High School/Junior College

WR **Joshua Tinch Louisville Sr. 6-3 223 Albany, Ga./Westover

WR Greg Lee Pittsburgh Jr. 6-2 200 Tampa, Fla./Chamberlain

OT Garin Justice West Virginia Sr. 6-8 300 Gilbert, W.Va./Gilbert

OG John Glass Rutgers Sr. 6-5 300 Allentown, Pa./University of New Haven

C Dan Mozes West Virginia Jr. 6-4 280 Washington, Pa./Washington

OG Jason Spitz Louisville Sr. 6-4 308 Jacksonville, Fla./Bolles

OT Travis Leffew Louisville Sr. 6-4 301 Danville, Ky./Boyle

TE Clark Harris Rutgers Jr. 6-6 255 Manahawkin, N.J./Southern Regional

QB **Brian Brohm Louisville So. 6-4 224 Louisville, Ky./Trinity

RB Michael Bush Louisville Jr. 6-3 250 Louisville, Ky./Male

RB Andre Hall USF Sr. 5-10 205 St. Petersburg, Fla./Dixie Hollins JC

PK Art Carmody Louisville So. 5-8 181 Shreveport, La./Loyola College

KR/PR Willie Foster Rutgers Jr. 5-10 170 Miami, Fla./Miami Central



DEFENSE

DL Elvis Dumervil Louisville Sr. 6-0 256 Miami, Fla./Miami Jackson

DL Ryan Neill Rutgers Sr. 6-3 265 Wayne Hills, N.J./Wayne Hills

DL Ryan LaCasse Syracuse Sr. 6-3 255 Stoughton, Mass./Stoughton

DL Ernest Hunter West Virginia Sr. 6-4 295 Burke, Va./Lake Braddock

LB James Hargrave Connecticut Sr. 5-11 224 Pleasantville, N.J,/St. Joseph

LB H.B. Blades Pittsburgh Jr. 6-0 240 Plantation, Fla./Plantation

LB Kevin McLee West Virginia Jr. 6-1 245 Uniontown, Pa./Uniontown

CB Bernard "Josh" Lay Pittsburgh Sr. 6-2 195 Aliquippa, Pa./Valley Forge Military Acad. (Pa.)

CB Darrelle Revis Pittsburgh So. 6-0 190 Aliquippa, Pa./Aliquippa

S Anthony Smith Syracuse Sr. 6-1 187 Hubbard, Ohio/Hubbard

S Jahmile Addae West Virginia Sr. 6-0 205 Valrico, Fla./Riverview

S Mike Lorello West Virginia Sr. 6-1 200 Powell, Ohio/Worthington-Kilbourne

P Brendan Carney Syracuse Jr. 6-5 202 Valley Forge, Pa./Malvern Prep







2005 ALL-BIG EAST SECOND TEAM



OFFENSE
Pos. Player School Cl. Ht. Wt. Hometown/High School/Junior College

WR Mario Urrutia Louisville Fr. 6-6 220 Louisville, Ky./Fern Creek

WR Tres Moses Rutgers Sr. 5-10 191 Delray Beach, Fla./Atlantic

OT Theodric Watson USF Jr. 6-5 295 St. Petersburg, Fla./Lakewood

OG Jeremy Sheffey West Virginia Jr. 6-3 290 Catlettsburg, Ky./Boyd County

C John Miller USF Sr. 6-0 275 Belle Glade, Fla./Glades Central

OG Frank Davis USF Sr. 6-4 310 Republic of Panama/Kilpatrick

OT Charles Spencer Pittsburgh Sr. 6-5 330 Poughkeepsie, N.Y./Trinity-Pawling School

TE Dan Murray Connecticut Jr. 6-5 244 Gloucester, Mass/Gloucester

QB Tyler Palko Pittsburgh Jr. 6-2 220 Imperial, Pa./West Allegheny

RB Brian Leonard Rutgers Jr. 6-2 235 Gouverneur, N.Y./Gouverneur

RB Steve Slaton West Virginia Fr. 5-10 195 Levittown, Pa./Conwell-Egan

PK Josh Cummings Pittsburgh Sr. 5-11 205 Newhall, Calif./College of the Canyons JC

KR/PR Antonio Lewis West Virginia So. 5-10 190 Waldorf, Md./Stone



DEFENSE

DL Rhema Fuller Connecticut Jr. 6-3 283 Cocoa, Fla./Cocoa

DL Deon McPhee Connecticut Sr. 6-2 284 Abaco, Bahamas/Abaco Cen./The Bolles School

DL Montavious Stanley Louisville Sr. 6-2 321 Albany, Ga./Westover

DL Terrence Royal USF Sr. 6-3 255 Tampa, Fla./Wharton

LB Corey Smith Cincinnati Fr. 6-1 215 Salem, N.J./Salem

LB Brandon Johnson Louisville Sr. 6-5 218 Birmingham, Ala./Minor

LB Stephen Nicholas USF Jr. 6-3 225 Jacksonville, Fla./Lee

CB Mike Mickens Cincinnati Fr. 6-0 165 Huber Heights, Ohio/Wayne

CB Mike Jenkins USF So. 6-0 200 Bradenton, Fla./Southeast

CB Anthony Mims West Virginia Sr. 6-0 190 Los Angeles, Calif./Fairfax

S Tez Morris Pittsburgh Jr. 5-10 190 Hamilton, Ohio/Hamilton

S Johnnie Jones USF Sr. 6-3 215 Sarasota, Fla./Booker

S Eric Wicks West Virginia Jr. 6-1 215 Pittsburgh, Pa./Perry

P Phil Brady West Virginia Sr. 5-9 185 Fairfax, Va./Robinson







** - unanimous selection

He is someone to watch for as a mid to late round pick.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

a) that is totally irrelevant -- since the draft was long before the rumored trade.

b) that trade is pure speculation. it is the brain child of profootballtalk.com -- they published the rumor and lots of crap reporters ran with it. your "if there is smoke there is fire" thinking is silly. do you believe every rumor you hear? for example, do you think Troy Aikman is gay too?

It is as relivant as your list of could be picks we passed on, some of which were before Parcells and company even took over. The point here is that the draft is a gamble. You don't know exactly what your going to get. Johnson is a good back but the truth of the matter is that KCs line is excellent. You can't point to a 2nd round selection of an OG and OT and say, that's why you don't trade down. Other teams pick OLs in the 2nd round and lower and have great success. If we can't pick talent, then we're not going to get better at it buy picking higher. We'll just use higher picks to select poor talent. You gotta do what makes sense and if you don't love the players that are available at your pick, then the prudent thing to do is trade. Simple as that IMO.

 

[AbeBeta]

It is as relivant as your list of could be picks we passed on, some of which were before Parcells and company even took over. The point here is that the draft is a gamble. You don't know exactly what your going to get. Johnson is a good back but the truth of the matter is that KCs line is excellent. You can't point to a 2nd round selection of an OG and OT and say, that's why you don't trade down. Other teams pick OLs in the 2nd round and lower and have great success. If we can't pick talent, then we're not going to get better at it buy picking higher. We'll just use higher picks to select poor talent. You gotta do what makes sense and if you don't love the players that are available at your pick, then the prudent thing to do is trade. Simple as that IMO.

huh? do you mean the 2nd round OLs? completely different issue -- I was discussing the type of quality you get in the 2nd round OL-wise. Someone cited Allen and Flo, I was showing what we've done in those rounds as an example that it isn't all Larry and Flozells in that round.

My point was that KC went BPA -- and they are happy as hell about that now.

And I never argued that you should pick higher just to do so - I said if the talent difference is low between say the 20th and 40th pick then go for it. If not it is stupid.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

huh? do you mean the 2nd round OLs? completely different issue -- I was discussing the type of quality you get in the 2nd round OL-wise. Someone cited Allen and Flo, I was showing what we've done in those rounds as an example that it isn't all Larry and Flozells in that round.

My point was that KC went BPA -- and they are happy as hell about that now.

And I never argued that you should pick higher just to do so - I said if the talent difference is low between say the 20th and 40th pick then go for it. If not it is stupid.

So then, were trading down?

 

[Wolverine]

I think we do. The needs of the team right now are for young, strong offensive linemen. I believe if we traded this years first for several seconds, thirds, or whatever the value chart indicated, we can get what we need faster. Except for a very few, like Gallery, linemen go later in the draft. We could use about two really good second round types, and maybe a third.

Maybe even move up for next year's pick as well, if we want a QB. It worked for our defense!

I think with our 1st rounder it is hard to say what to do. If we sign LeCharles Bently for Center that would make it easier to do more what we want with the 1st rounder.

Lets say we get Bently.

If in the 1st round a top Guard or Tackle is there for us with our 1st round pick. Forget trading down. Take the player. Why take a chance of losing a top OL by trading down.

ALso if a steal at LB FS or WR should fall to us in the 1st round that is something to think about to.

 

[Sitting Bull]

We've hit on our last three first rounders and our last draft was perhaps our best in 15 years. I think we should hang on to our draft picks like gold and look to add more. We've got great leverage in the FA market- that needs to be viewed separately from our draft, IMO.