Does Rod Marinelli Undervalue the 1-Tech?

[DoctorChicken]

With the draft approaching, there has been a lot of discussion about what position the Cowboys should bolster with their 1st Round selection. Some people are praying for a RB such as Gurley or Gordon to fall to #27. Some are hoping for a DE, as we all know it may be very hard to keep Greg Hardy after this season. Others want a trade down into the 2nd, collecting more picks to increase the overall depth of the roster.

But on another Cowboys forum I post on, it seems as if they're all begging for a big, ugly 1-Tech.

You seriously can't click a draft thread without the same people yelling (in all caps, usually) about how "WE NEED A BIG, 659 LB 1-Tech WHO CAN PUsH THE POckET AND STUFF THE RUN, HOLD SNAPS AND PUT BRYANT'S VERTICAL TO SHAME!!!!!!1!!1!" (Perhaps that was a slight exaggeration, but I do find it fascinating that the same little group of people always mention they want the DT to be over 330 lbs)

I actually have some quotes -

Crawford and Hayden are adequate. Brent is an adequate back up. ( Back up ONLY )
NONE of these guys are the mammoth QB hating run stopping DT we need to also provide a
pass rush from up the middle.
THAT person is NOT on this team yet.

Still think the Dline is not great and needs improvements. Especially becasue Hardy is a lease. Still need a truly good 1 tech. If Malcom Brown falls, he would be an excellent pick.

Still need a DT

Our D-line did NOT pressure the QB last year up the middle from the DT position and neither Hayden nor
Crawford have proven they can stop the run.

All of this got me wondering - does Rod Marinelli undervalue the 1-Tech?

Let's look at the 1-Techs of recent successful teams, say, the past few Super Bowl winners (some of these teams run a 3-4, so a few of these are technically NTs).

2014 - NE: 1st round 1-Tech
2013 - SEA: 3rd round 1-Tech
2012 - Balt: 1st round 1-Tech
2011 - NYG: 2nd round 1-Tech
2010 - GB: 1st round 1-Tech
2009 - NO: 1st round 1-Tech
2008 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech
2007 - NYG: 4th round 1-Tech
2006 - Indy: 1st round 1-Tech
2005 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech

It seems as if those teams valued the position. What about out beloved Cowboys?

2014 Dallas Cowboys 1-Techs: Nick Hayden (6th round), Terell McClain (3rd round), Ken Bishop (7th round), Josh Brent (7th round supplemental draft)

Meanwhile during pre-draft visits, the Cowboys have met with

So tell me zoners, does Marinelli, or the Cowboys FO in general undervalue the 1-Tech?

 

[Sportsbabe]

Absolutely not.

 

[ShiningStar]

While im not the biggest Garrett supporter, this team has been under one big overhaul. We are finally getting to wear teh draft is becoming a luxury. So i would hold off to see how this draft and next years draft goes. If marinelli still isnt taking 1 techs, yea we can kinda say that but a lot more factors have to be taken into consideration.

 

[AsthmaField]

That's just ridiculous. Why would you post on another Cowboys message board?

 

[xwalker]

With the draft approaching, there has been a lot of discussion about what position the Cowboys should bolster with their 1st Round selection. Some people are praying for a RB such as Gurley or Gordon to fall to #27. Some are hoping for a DE, as we all know it may be very hard to keep Greg Hardy after this season. Others want a trade down into the 2nd, collecting more picks to increase the overall depth of the roster.

But on another Cowboys forum I post on, it seems as if they're all begging for a big, ugly 1-Tech.

You seriously can't click a draft thread without the same people yelling (in all caps, usually) about how "WE NEED A BIG, 659 LB 1-Tech WHO CAN PUsH THE POckET AND STUFF THE RUN, HOLD SNAPS AND PUT BRYANT'S VERTICAL TO SHAME!!!!!!1!!1!" (Perhaps that was a slight exaggeration, but I do find it fascinating that the same little group of people always mention they want the DT to be over 330 lbs)

I actually have some quotes -







All of this got me wondering - does Rod Marinelli undervalue the 1-Tech?

Let's look at the 1-Techs of recent successful teams, say, the past few Super Bowl winners (some of these teams run a 3-4, so a few of these are technically NTs).

2014 - NE: 1st round 1-Tech
2013 - SEA: 3rd round 1-Tech
2012 - Balt: 1st round 1-Tech
2011 - NYG: 2nd round 1-Tech
2010 - GB: 1st round 1-Tech
2009 - NO: 1st round 1-Tech
2008 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech
2007 - NYG: 4th round 1-Tech
2006 - Indy: 1st round 1-Tech
2005 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech

It seems as if those teams valued the position. What about out beloved Cowboys?

2014 Dallas Cowboys 1-Techs: Nick Hayden (6th round), Terell McClain (3rd round), Ken Bishop (7th round), Josh Brent (7th round supplemental draft)

Meanwhile during pre-draft visits, the Cowboys have met with

So tell me zoners, does Marinelli, or the Cowboys FO in general undervalue the 1-Tech?

Booger McFarland 1st round (#15)

Stephen Paea 2nd round (#53)

The whole ordeal with Floyd was odd. It is unusual for a position coach to not want the team to draft a player in the 1st at his position. It's not as if he was choosing between Floyd and some other DLineman or even another defensive player. It seems that Marinelli just thought this specific player was drastically overrated.

The issue right now is that I think they like the players already on the team:
Josh Brent - Super Strong (Crawford says strongest guy on the team). Was never in shape in 2014.
Ken Bishop - Very strong with more quickness/pass-rush than Brent. Now has NFL experience including a playoff game.
T. McClain - Played through injury last season. Flashed pass rush ability. Was good as a run defender with Houston in 2013 but injuries seemed to limit him in 2014.

Nick Hayden: I don't really understand this one, but Marinelli seems to love him. He is Mr. Hustle and gets out wide or back to LB depth to get in on tackles that you would not expect from a DT, but he is terrible going against OLineman directly. He does not draw double teams and the few times he did he got completely blown out. He often got stuck on single blocks which allows offenses to have an extra blocker to get the LBs or Crawford or the DEs.

 

[cowboyfan4life_mark]

I have been trying to find an article that I read quite a while back. In it, Marinelli had said that he doesn't want to use a top end pick on a 1tech. He said that you can get those big type guys in the later rounds. He sort of explained that it was the least valued spot in his scheme.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is just my opinion but from my point of view, Marinelli is proving to be a pretty good DC. However, also IMO, he is one of the finest DL Coaches I've ever seen. I don't think there is much that most people, including those who make a living in the game of Football, can teach Marinelli about DL play. I don't think he undervalues players or positions. I think he understands exactly what he needs to have his scheme work.

That's just my opinion.

 

[theogt]

This is just my opinion but from my point of view, Marinelli is proving to be a pretty good DC. However, also IMO, he is one of the finest DL Coaches I've ever seen. I don't think there is much that most people, including those who make a living in the game of Football, can teach Marinelli about DL play. I don't think he undervalues players or positions. I think he understands exactly what he needs to have his scheme work.

That's just my opinion.

It's hard to argue with this.

 

[Hardline]

It would be very hard passing up Malcolm Brown regardless of what tech he plays.

 

[Mr Cowboy]

I think the organization under values the 1 tech and the safety position. Marinelli is a great coach, no doubt, but he is getting the most out of the players he has. I can assure you that if Jerry or Stephen came to Marrinelli and asked him, would you prefer a top notch, first round, Vince Wilfork player or Hayden and Brent, he would choose the fist round pick. He just hasn't been given that choice.

 

[AsthmaField]

Schemes are all different and what they ask their DT's to do is different.

Of the teams you mentioned only Seattle, Indy, New Orleans and the NYG have defenses that were even close to what Dallas now has. Notice that two of those teams are the ones that used the only non-first round 1DT (4th, 3rd, 2nd) on your list. Indy and New Orleans did but I think they might would take a different player if given the chance.

2014 - NE: 1st round 1-Tech
2013 - SEA: 3rd round 1-Tech
2012 - Balt: 1st round 1-Tech
2011 - NYG: 2nd round 1-Tech
2010 - GB: 1st round 1-Tech
2009 - NO: 1st round 1-Tech
2008 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech
2007 - NYG: 4th round 1-Tech
2006 - Indy: 1st round 1-Tech
2005 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech

Pitt, NE, Baltimore, and Green Bay all play a 3-4 defense (with NE playing both an odd and even front) and how they view their DT's shouldn't really even be used in the same conversation as to how Marinelli uses his. Even though New England is in a four man front a lot, they play it differently than Marinelli and Pete Carroll do. Even Spagnuolo's Giants and Gregg Williams' Saints, who use a 43 scheme, tend to use DT's differently than Dallas and Seattle. Heck, even Seattle and Dallas have subtle differences in what they ask of their DT's.

The people screaming for a 330 pound 1DT simply don't understand what Marinelli wants out of that position and they try to project how some teams like New England and Pitt use their big DT's, onto Marinelli's DL... and it just doesn't work like that. Mobility and 100% effort are high on Marinelli's wish list for DT's, and that includes the 1. Ideally, he wants a guy who can hold up against the run but he also wants huge effort out of that guy and the mobility to get after the QB if given the opportunity. That effort is more difficult to get out of a 330 pound guy than a 305 pound guy.

The main thing is though, to hold up against a double team and not get pushed out to create a crease that the RB can exploit. Marinelli knows that there are guys in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds that can come in and be part of a rotation that does just that. The rotation keeps the guys fresh and they don't have to be 330 pound guys to hold up against the run when they're only playing 30 snaps.

In other words, in Marinelli's defense, you get the same production out of a couple of 305 pound DT's rotating at the 1 as you would from one high end 330 pound DT taken in the first. It would simply be wasteful to use a first round pick on a 1 tech that isn't really going to give you anything he doesn't already have at the position.

Having said all of that, with the Cowboys picking so late in the first, I wouldn't rule out a 1 tech at that spot but I see it as pretty unlikely. I think Malcom Brown is probably the only DT that they might would use their first on and he is not just a 1 tech. He would rotate in at both DT spots and has some real skill getting after the QB. I would be down with Brown at 27.

The real test though will be if Eddie Goldman is there at 27. With a pick so late they just might do it but I still would seriously doubt if they would go that route.

So basically, if I were you, I'd pretty much ignore those guys because they're just taking a general idea of an NFL defense and plugging it in to Marinelli's scheme. They just have a vision of a huge guy wreaking havoc in the middle of the defense, when they don't really understand that they wouldn't be that way in this defense and that a much cheaper draft pick would give you basically the same thing. They apparently don't understand the subtleties of defense that says not all positions are created equal in each different defense.

 

[Derinyar]

If Rod is a very good coach, which we all think he is, then while he'd love a 1st round talent at every position he's honest enough to say we don't "need" this guy to be successful. And knowing he doesn't need that guy he says no because the team is going to be better off using the pick on a player at a different position. I just don't see us deciding to use our 1st pick on a 1 tech. Maybe the second round, and anytime after that I can see.

 

[blumayne38]

With the draft approaching, there has been a lot of discussion about what position the Cowboys should bolster with their 1st Round selection. Some people are praying for a RB such as Gurley or Gordon to fall to #27. Some are hoping for a DE, as we all know it may be very hard to keep Greg Hardy after this season. Others want a trade down into the 2nd, collecting more picks to increase the overall depth of the roster.

But on another Cowboys forum I post on, it seems as if they're all begging for a big, ugly 1-Tech.

You seriously can't click a draft thread without the same people yelling (in all caps, usually) about how "WE NEED A BIG, 659 LB 1-Tech WHO CAN PUsH THE POckET AND STUFF THE RUN, HOLD SNAPS AND PUT BRYANT'S VERTICAL TO SHAME!!!!!!1!!1!" (Perhaps that was a slight exaggeration, but I do find it fascinating that the same little group of people always mention they want the DT to be over 330 lbs)

I actually have some quotes -







All of this got me wondering - does Rod Marinelli undervalue the 1-Tech?

Let's look at the 1-Techs of recent successful teams, say, the past few Super Bowl winners (some of these teams run a 3-4, so a few of these are technically NTs).

2014 - NE: 1st round 1-Tech
2013 - SEA: 3rd round 1-Tech
2012 - Balt: 1st round 1-Tech
2011 - NYG: 2nd round 1-Tech
2010 - GB: 1st round 1-Tech
2009 - NO: 1st round 1-Tech
2008 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech
2007 - NYG: 4th round 1-Tech
2006 - Indy: 1st round 1-Tech
2005 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech

It seems as if those teams valued the position. What about out beloved Cowboys?

2014 Dallas Cowboys 1-Techs: Nick Hayden (6th round), Terell McClain (3rd round), Ken Bishop (7th round), Josh Brent (7th round supplemental draft)

Meanwhile during pre-draft visits, the Cowboys have met with

So tell me zoners, does Marinelli, or the Cowboys FO in general undervalue the 1-Tech?

I think thw past few years we have completely looked past the whole defense in the draft since the MO pick

 

[gmoney112]

That was a lot of writing just for a plethora of irrelevant comparisons.

I don't think he undervalues it. There's just a finite amount of resources to allocate. Especially with our complete overhaul we've been undergoing, a 1 just hasn't been a huge priority.

 

[visionary]

I think the organization under values the 1 tech and the safety position. Marinelli is a great coach, no doubt, but he is getting the most out of the players he has. I can assure you that if Jerry or Stephen came to Marrinelli and asked him, would you prefer a top notch, first round, Vince Wilfork player or Hayden and Brent, he would choose the fist round pick. He just hasn't been given that choice.

Good point

 

[JoeyBoy718]

All I know is, Nick Hayden got more snaps than any other DLman the past two years and our interior DL has been awful during that time. I don't even care about scheme. I just know if a guy is on the field a lot, he better bring something. Hayden is decent against the run, awful with the pass rush, doesn't demand double teams, and has good effort.

 

[xwalker]

Schemes are all different and what they ask their DT's to do is different.

Of the teams you mentioned only Seattle, Indy, New Orleans and the NYG have defenses that were even close to what Dallas now has. Notice that two of those teams are the ones that used the only non-first round 1DT (4th, 3rd, 2nd) on your list. Indy and New Orleans did but I think they might would take a different player if given the chance.

2014 - NE: 1st round 1-Tech
2013 - SEA: 3rd round 1-Tech
2012 - Balt: 1st round 1-Tech
2011 - NYG: 2nd round 1-Tech
2010 - GB: 1st round 1-Tech
2009 - NO: 1st round 1-Tech
2008 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech
2007 - NYG: 4th round 1-Tech
2006 - Indy: 1st round 1-Tech
2005 - PITT: 1st round 1-Tech

Pitt, NE, Baltimore, and Green Bay all play a 3-4 defense (with NE playing both an odd and even front) and how they view their DT's shouldn't really even be used in the same conversation as to how Marinelli uses his. Even though New England is in a four man front a lot, they play it differently than Marinelli and Pete Carroll do. Even Spagnuolo's Giants and Gregg Williams' Saints, who use a 43 scheme, tend to use DT's differently than Dallas and Seattle. Heck, even Seattle and Dallas have subtle differences in what they ask of their DT's.

The people screaming for a 330 pound 1DT simply don't understand what Marinelli wants out of that position and they try to project how some teams like New England and Pitt use their big DT's, onto Marinelli's DL... and it just doesn't work like that. Mobility and 100% effort are high on Marinelli's wish list for DT's, and that includes the 1. Ideally, he wants a guy who can hold up against the run but he also wants huge effort out of that guy and the mobility to get after the QB if given the opportunity. That effort is more difficult to get out of a 330 pound guy than a 305 pound guy.

The main thing is though, to hold up against a double team and not get pushed out to create a crease that the RB can exploit. Marinelli knows that there are guys in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds that can come in and be part of a rotation that does just that. The rotation keeps the guys fresh and they don't have to be 330 pound guys to hold up against the run when they're only playing 30 snaps.

In other words, in Marinelli's defense, you get the same production out of a couple of 305 pound DT's rotating at the 1 as you would from one high end 330 pound DT taken in the first. It would simply be wasteful to use a first round pick on a 1 tech that isn't really going to give you anything he doesn't already have at the position.

Having said all of that, with the Cowboys picking so late in the first, I wouldn't rule out a 1 tech at that spot but I see it as pretty unlikely. I think Malcom Brown is probably the only DT that they might would use their first on and he is not just a 1 tech. He would rotate in at both DT spots and has some real skill getting after the QB. I would be down with Brown at 27.

The real test though will be if Eddie Goldman is there at 27. With a pick so late they just might do it but I still would seriously doubt if they would go that route.

So basically, if I were you, I'd pretty much ignore those guys because they're just taking a general idea of an NFL defense and plugging it in to Marinelli's scheme. They just have a vision of a huge guy wreaking havoc in the middle of the defense, when they don't really understand that they wouldn't be that way in this defense and that a much cheaper draft pick would give you basically the same thing. They apparently don't understand the subtleties of defense that says not all positions are created equal in each different defense.

Of the people screaming for a huge 330 pound 1tech, it surprising that they are not excited about having Josh Brent back. He is one of the hard guys to move that you'll see at DT.

 

[AsthmaField]

Of the people screaming for a huge 330 pound 1tech, it surprising that they are not excited about having Josh Brent back. He is one of the hard guys to move that you'll see at DT.

I feel the same way. He can anchor as good as anyone in this draft.

 

[CyberB0b]

I think the organization under values the 1 tech and the safety position. Marinelli is a great coach, no doubt, but he is getting the most out of the players he has. I can assure you that if Jerry or Stephen came to Marrinelli and asked him, would you prefer a top notch, first round, Vince Wilfork player or Hayden and Brent, he would choose the fist round pick. He just hasn't been given that choice.

Yes. We haven't had a fatty run stuffer in a long time. Even in a 2 gap 3-4, we didn't have that guy.

 

[Mr Cowboy]

Of the people screaming for a huge 330 pound 1tech, it surprising that they are not excited about having Josh Brent back. He is one of the hard guys to move that you'll see at DT.

Brent wasn't very good before his jail time and has pretty much missed 2 years of football. I don't see how he can be viewed as anything more than a camp body who has a chance.....