Drafting from big schools vs. small schools

[burmafrd]

Blame is your paradigm not mine. Arkin of course could be incapable but fault and blame are emotional nonsense in my view.

keep on making excuses for your pet cat-we can use a laugh or two

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

keep on making excuses for your pet cat-we can use a laugh or two

One day you might realize that people don't all think like you do. Now you start in with 'excuses.'

I will give you a hint. My approach does not concern holding Cowboys players coaches or executives accountable. I am not so full of myself.

I agree that he failed here. I happen to think it is because he was never able to get strong enough. You are the one determined to blame or excuse. I am just interested in what it was without the judgments.

 

[jazzcat22]

Your post really embodies that last sentence. You show neither deep thought or critical thinking

Apparently you put a lot of critical thinking, or actually, your not thinking, on wanting to ride me for some reason, guess it's ignore list for you. You must have other issues going on.

 

[Alexander]

I happen to think it is because he was never able to get strong enough.

Ross Tucker, a former lineman himself, made it very clear his stance on the "getting stronger" angle. In his eyes, nobody "gets stronger". Players may get bulkier, or faster or especially get better with technique but the core strength is something he says he has never seen a player do to a significant degree. They may spend a season or two getting bigger and better in the weight room, but functional football strength is either there and you use what you have or you don't. This time spent "remaking" bodies is something that rarely pays off. Technique as much as anything is the key factor.

 

[BigStar]

Ross Tucker, a former lineman himself, made it very clear his stance on the "getting stronger" angle. In his eyes, nobody "gets stronger". Players may get bulkier, or faster or especially get better with technique but the core strength is something he says he has never seen a player do to a significant degree. They may spend a season or two getting bigger and better in the weight room, but functional football strength is either there and you use what you have or you don't. This time spent "remaking" bodies is something that rarely pays off. Technique as much as anything is the key factor.

So if I'm hearing you, the core strength exercises are what is needed to develop strength (esp for OL/DL) but are rarely incorporated as the primary method? Or are you more saying "you got it or you don"t" (football strength) kinda thing?

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Again, you will always find an occasional gem. But that's the exception much more than the rule.

I find there are more busts from big schools....but thats just me.

I'll add Michael Strahan...texas southern.

 

[Blackspider214]

I've always been a believer in taking guys from big schools. They play against big time competition and the step to the NFL is smaller for them.

You will always find the occasional gem from small schools such as Larry Allen. But from a purely statisical probability of success, your better off taking guys from big schools, especially if your trying to build a winner.

Teams like Seattle or San Fran. can take flyers on small schools guys because they already have deep rosters. Teams like Dallas? Not so much.

This is true but on the flip side, players from big schools can look vastly overrated. Especially with the hype of say the SEC machine. Trent Richardson and Claiborne come to mind. They played on great teams and in a great system so they looked much better than what they were.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I find there are more busts from big schools....but thats just me.

I'll add Michael Strahan...texas southern.

I don't know if there are more, on average or not. I've never seen any statistics on it but I'd imagine that more players are taken from big schools so the number would obviously be greater then from smaller schools. Would be interesting to see a statistical analysis on it though.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ross Tucker, a former lineman himself, made it very clear his stance on the "getting stronger" angle. In his eyes, nobody "gets stronger". Players may get bulkier, or faster or especially get better with technique but the core strength is something he says he has never seen a player do to a significant degree. They may spend a season or two getting bigger and better in the weight room, but functional football strength is either there and you use what you have or you don't. This time spent "remaking" bodies is something that rarely pays off. Technique as much as anything is the key factor.

I don't even know what that means. If you are trying to tell me taht young men cannot get more functional strength and they get older I am not going to believe it.

Do you thing that adding 50-100 lbs to the various presses, squats, snatches and cleans that they do has no bearing on performance on the field? Sorry I do not buy that.

I also do not buy that a 21 year old is done growing.

Primary example to me is Tyron Smith. He has obviously gotten bigger and stronger in his core and upper body. I contend that it has helped him hold blocks and anchor after being susceptible -OMG BIG WORD!!!?!?- to power moves his rookie year.

Another example on the team is Jason Witten who improved dramatically strengthwise from his rookie year to become a dominant interior blocker for a time even if that time has passed.

We will have to see if the work of Devonte Holloman who has by all accounts transformed his body helps him take on and shed blocks this year.

The clearest example of what strength training and sports can do is David Robinson of the Spurs. When he came into the league he was pushed around in the pivot and clearly did not have the requisite -OMG BIG WORD??!!?!- strength to preform against the Patrick Ewings and Mark Eatons of the world.

He transformed his body and had those massive defined arms and chest to show for it. He then had the requisite functional strength to fight in the post and for rebounds that he had not had the year before.

Ross Tucker doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Ross Tucker, a former lineman himself, made it very clear his stance on the "getting stronger" angle. In his eyes, nobody "gets stronger". Players may get bulkier, or faster or especially get better with technique but the core strength is something he says he has never seen a player do to a significant degree. They may spend a season or two getting bigger and better in the weight room, but functional football strength is either there and you use what you have or you don't. This time spent "remaking" bodies is something that rarely pays off. Technique as much as anything is the key factor.

I've always agreed with this. No one likes and believes in weight training more than I do, but you're basically adding to what you already have, and it's a case of the rich getting richer. Sure, everyone can get stronger, but if you lack natural size and strength, you're in trouble, because a weight program isn't going to make you from scratch into something you aren't. Meanwhile your competitors who do have that natural size and strength are only getting farther ahead of you.

And in Arkin's case, I always thought his small school weight room was a bad excuse. The strongest people on this planet train with barbells in the most basic of facilities, not fancy gyms with a bunch of expensive machines.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I've always agreed with this. No one likes and believes in weight training more than I do, but you're basically adding to what you already have, and it's a case of the rich getting richer. Sure, everyone can get stronger, but if you lack natural size and strength, you're in trouble, because a weight program isn't going to make you from scratch into something you aren't. Meanwhile your competitors who do have that natural size and strength are only getting farther ahead of you.

And in Arkin's case, I always thought his small school weight room was a bad excuse. The strongest people on this planet train with barbells in the most basic of facilities, not fancy gyms with a bunch of expensive machines.

I think what you say has a lot of logic to it but I don't think you can discount actual training techniques. I mean, free weight lifting is as good for building strength as there is IMO but the actual value of a big time program is in the quality of the program and it's techniques. That's what suffers in smaller programs.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I think what you say has a lot of logic to it but I don't think you can discount actual training techniques. I mean, free weight lifting is as good for building strength as there is IMO but the actual value of a big time program is in the quality of the program and it's techniques. That's what suffers in smaller programs.

I pretty much agree. What suffers is the lack of competition from your teammates. When you're already the biggest and strongest in your small pond, it's hard to be motivated to keep pushing yourself further, no matter who you are. But the facilities themselves wouldn't have held him back. All you need are barbells, benches, and squat racks, and every high school in America has those, so I know Missouri State did.

 

[Alexander]

I don't even know what that means. If you are trying to tell me taht young men cannot get more functional strength and they get older I am not going to believe it.

I am going off the word of a former "smaller school" OL from the Ivy League in Ross Tucker. He made it very clear that he didn't despite the "attempt" and never saw anyone who "got stronger" as a result of being a pro. In fact, they got weaker as the wear and tear took it's toll. This is not like they get a magical dose of Super Soldier serum that turns a scrawy I-AA player into Captain America in a few years.

If you choose to dismiss it because it does not fit your viewpoint, suit yourself. Not going to bother arguing it.[/quote]

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I am going off the word of a former "smaller school" OL from the Ivy League in Ross Tucker. He made it very clear that he didn't despite the "attempt" and never saw anyone who "got stronger" as a result of being a pro. In fact, they got weaker as the wear and tear took it's toll. This is not like they get a magical dose of Super Soldier serum that turns a scrawy I-AA player into Captain America in a few years.

If you choose to dismiss it because it does not fit your viewpoint, suit yourself. Not going to bother arguing it.

You are really going to accuse me of confirmation bias when I gave three specific examples to the contrary? I will give a small school guy that was able to increase his strength to the minimum in Doug Free who was clearly overpowered when he first came in.

I assume we should not hold out hope that Holloman and Escobar can gain the strength that we need so that they can compete in the run game?

You are going to have to be more clever than that if you intend to persuade an audience.

You sound petulant frankly:

I'M NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU! I AM GOING TO LISTEN TO HIM!

Your argument amounts to nothing more. You're either too lazy or more likely incapable of addressing those counterexamples that disprove your supposed rule.

 

[Alexander]

I'M NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU! I AM GOING TO LISTEN TO HIM!

Actually yes, I am going to listen to the former NFL player who actually played the position and went through the system as opposed to you.

Sorry. Nothing petulant about it. Just acknowledging that in terms of opinion, I am going to ignore the bluster from a layman, namely, well, you.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Actually yes, I am going to listen to the former NFL player who actually played the position and went through the system as opposed to you.

Sorry. Nothing petulant about it. Just acknowledging that in terms of opinion, I am going to ignore the bluster from a layman, namely, well, you.

You certainly are hiding behind that facade.

If you are going to appeal to his authority then you have to make sure that the argument even applies. Empirical examples of players 'getting stronger' especially from small schools trumps some blanket throwaway statement that you don't even cite. I don't think you're a liar man I take you at your word that Ross Tucker indeed said that so don't go there.

So then how did Jason Witten, Tyron Smith, David Robinson and Doug Free 'get stronger.' Or do you not think that they did for example you think that Tyron Smith didn't have problems anchoring and sustaining blocks before?

Or are you just going to rest with Ross Tucker and leave it at that? I'm guessing the latter. This notion that young players especially cannot get stronger is asinine.