Eatman: Jason Witten reworks contract...Livings and Bernadeau too

Nightman

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T-RO;5011535 said:
NO MONEY IS SAVED.
NO MONEY IS SAVED.
NO MONEY IS SAVED.

Quit saying nonsense like that. It is DEFERRED. The financial obligation is merely postponed.

More cap space today. Less for seasons to come. It's called mortgaging the future.

Cap space IS saved by pushing it forward when the cap goes up. The cap hit is a smaller % than it would be now. Plus, if they stay under the cap this year they can roll it over to next year. Also the 5m cap penalty will be gone.
 

Hoofbite

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bkight13;5011553 said:
Cap space IS saved by pushing it forward when the cap goes up. The cap hit is a smaller % than it would be now.

The cap doesn't move nearly fast enough to make this % difference significant at all from a year-to-year basis.

Plus, if they stay under the cap this year they can roll it over to next year.

They'd simply be rolling it over to cover the fact that they are over again.

Also the 5m cap penalty will be gone.

And all these restructurings have added likely that much and more. Carr's restructure eats up half of that.
 

jjktkk

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Wood;5011524 said:
I agree the teams lack of success has a poor draft component to it. But Dallas extends players over 30 more than the better teams do. That has salary cap implications to it. Its poor strategy that results in excising options at these check points on players who you should start to replace.

New England's Tom Brady thinks your just whining cause you hate Jerry. ;)
 

TheSport78

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I'm so thrilled Livings and Bernadeau were restructured. Pretty much guarantees they'll be on the roster.


Joy.
 

CowboyStar88

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AMERICAS_FAN;5011523 said:
Do you also know that every teasm does the same thing?

Every year teams abosrb dead money and free up cap space by moving live money inot hte future.

Let's not pretend that Dallas is the only team subject to the CBA rules.

Logic! How dare you! It just gives people something to complain about. They need something to complain about daily it really is exhausting. The Cowboys can't do anything right and when they do they lucked into it. All the Jerry bashing, Cowboys bashing, Kiffin bashing and people are even bashing Stephen Jones who IMO has been a great asset to this team and I would bet he would be hired on by other clubs if he no longer had a job, but it has just worn thin. I hope I am not the only one who feels this way
 

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Hoofbite;5011561 said:
The cap doesn't move nearly fast enough to make this % difference significant at all from a year-to-year basis.



They'd simply be rolling it over to cover the fact that they are over again.



And all these restructurings have added likely that much and more. Carr's restructure eats up half of that.

Even at a 2% increase to the cap it helps and the idea of the rollover is to clear as much room as you can. In the past you had to choose how much you needed to be under vs wasting it or using the outdated LTBE bonuses. Now teams can simply roll over any unused space. It gives them much more flexibility.

If they can get to 18-20m under the cap, they can tag Spencer and try to work out a team friendly deal or trade him to a 3-4 team. If they trade him, they can just roll the 10m over to next year or sign a late FA or 2.
 

CowboyStar88

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Wood;5011524 said:
I agree the teams lack of success has a poor draft component to it. But Dallas extends players over 30 more than the better teams do. That has salary cap implications to it. Its poor strategy that results in excising options at these check points on players who you should start to replace.

Is that based on fact? or are you just assuming? I am curious if that is true or not.
 

CowboyStar88

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T-RO;5011535 said:
NO MONEY IS SAVED.
NO MONEY IS SAVED.
NO MONEY IS SAVED.

Quit saying nonsense like that. It is DEFERRED. The financial obligation is merely postponed.

More cap space today. Less for seasons to come. It's called mortgaging the future.

Since the cap isn't expected to go up until 2015 and since the team is still getting hit for the 5 mil, I would say it's a smart move, Also Stephen mentioned the other day that a lot of contracts are setup this way and that it's really not a big deal. They are mortgaging anything really they are saving money so that they can upgrade the roster. Let's be honest they are not doing anything to hurt this franchise. Next season they get 5 million additional in cap space and some players like Austin, Free and Rat can be let go to save even more money into the future. I don't think restructuring these guys now to free up 10 mil or so is going to hender the cap in the future. Let's say it's pread over the next 3-5 years at 2 mil a year that isn't bad at all. I don't see the huge deal with this. There is no interest on the money so what is the big deal?
 

Hoofbite

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bkight13;5011579 said:
Even at a 2% increase to the cap it helps and the idea of the rollover is to clear as much room as you can. In the past you had to choose how much you needed to be under vs wasting it or using the outdated LTBE bonuses. Now teams can simply roll over any unused space. It gives them much more flexibility.

If they can get to 18-20m under the cap, they can tag Spencer and try to work out a team friendly deal or trade him to a 3-4 team. If they trade him, they can just roll the 10m over to next year or sign a late FA or 2.

They aren't rolling over extra money. They're rolling over money they have borrowed from future seasons.

Take 1M from next year and then roll it over to next year.
 

Nightman

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Hoofbite;5011589 said:
They aren't rolling over extra money. They're rolling over money they have borrowed from future seasons.

Take 1M from next year and then roll it over to next year.

If they are 5m under the cap this year and roll it over to next year, they will have a cap of 127m instead of 122m. There is no payback, except for the one-time option of borrowing 3m in future cap space that was offered last year and wasn't used as far as I know.
 

Hoofbite

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Here's one of my problems with all the smoke and mirrors the team has been doing with the cap.

They are:

1. Setting themselves up to be in a situation where they can't cut a guy for a couple of years because the cap charge is too high to absorb.

2. Setting the player up to be in a situation where his performance doesn't meet the expectations of his cap charge.

3. Setting the fans up to hate the player because of #2.


Here's a small graphic I created for illustration purposes. It's based on Spotracs numbers of Carr's contract. This assumes they can spread the restructured money into the option year. I don't know if they can or they can't, it really doesn't matter because this is simply an illustration and the principle doesn't change one bit if they can't. It likely makes the entire situation worse as that additional 2.7M would have to be redistributed to the years left on the actual contract. But, this is how Spotrac has listed his new cap charges so that's what I am going with.

http://i5.***BLOCKED***/albums/y188/thehoofbite/1-1.png

  • The dashed lines/bars are what the contract looked like prior to the restructure.
  • The solid bars are the new figures.
  • The "Cut Charge" is the amount the team would have to absorb if the player were not on the roster for that particular season, assuming they took it all at once.

Going back to my list above:

1. Setting themselves up to be in a situation where they can't cut a guy for a couple of years because the cap charge is too high to absorb.

Brandon Carr's spot is now secure for at least 3 more seasons regardless of performance. The team cannot take the cap hits for 2014 and 2015 that would come current if they cut him. It's likely secure for 4 more seasons as if they cut him prior to 2016, they'd actually be carrying more dead money than the amount of cap space that they would free up in cutting him.

Dallas is now forced to keep the guy no matter what. If he plays like Terrence Newman it likely doesn't matter at all because they've saddled the salary cap with large charges.

2. Setting the player up to be in a situation where his performance doesn't meet the expectations of his cap charge.

This is a topic I've discussed in the past. I've talked about it in terms of the cap penalties in how Dallas tried to swindle the cap with Austin and I've talked about it in regards to Spencer as well to some extent. IMO, what it comes down to is:

A) The salary cap is practically the only real limit on player acquisition.

B) How a player should be judged should not be based on his average base salary or average yearly amount. It should be based on what you would expect his salary cap charge would get you.


If you are having a player eat 10% of your salary cap, you should expect that guy to perform on that level regardless of what his base salary is. Brandon Carr is not the best CB in the NFL and in all honesty, he probably wouldn't have come in at Top 10 based on last years performance. Maybe even Top 20. He just wasn't all that great. His new cap charges of 12M or more are likely on par with any player in the Top 5 for his position.

Over the span of 2014-2016, I think it's likely he's one of the higher cap charges at the CB position in the league. I don't know but I would suspect there are few players who are going to eat more over that span.

He is now being put in a position to where he absolutely has to play like a Top 5 CB. If not, Dallas is losing out because they could have used some of that cap space elsewhere. Of course the best-case scenario for the flipside would be that Dallas is benefitting from a ridiculously low cap charge for the 1st two seasons of the contract but that's completely erased for this last season because he didn't play anywhere close to Top 5 so the realized benefit in having a low cap number practically didn't exist.

And here's another thing I've mentioned before. Dallas is treating player performance like it's sitting on an appreciation curve. Like there is some guarantee that Carr's performance will increase right along with the cap figures. That's misguided and quite-frankly delusional. Players have a limited lifespan and their performance generally follows a depreciation curve. As players age, their performance tends to trail off. This isn't a new idea or anything groundbreaking. For most players, it's the truth.

Dallas is banking on their guys being the exception to the rule in that these guys will play at high, and ever increasing levels, all throughout the contract.

Let me ask a question:

When is a player more likely to validate a high cap number

A) At the beginning of a contract while the player is in his prime?

or

B) At the end of the contract when he has passed through his prime and is now entering into the twilight years?


The answer is obvious but Dallas treats players in a counterintuitive manner.

This, IMO, is why Ozzie Newsome said that the Ravens don't restructure unless they foresee a guy being on the roster for the entire duration of the contract or unless they are getting great value. When you sign a mid-tier FA and he develops into a stud at his position, you can restructure for cap relief because his cap number is still catching up to the performance he gives you. When you force the player to chase the cap number, then you have to make decisions about cutting a guy too soon or too late and ultimately carry dead money.

3. Setting the fans up to hate the player because of #2.

This is simple. People don't like seeing big fat cap charges for guys who aren't performing. At 12M, it's likely some will view that as too much. I have zero doubt that in 2-3 years people will hate Brandon Carr because his cap figure is so high relative to what he is actually doing on the field. It's happened with guys in the past, it will happen with Carr if he doesn't live up to expectations. That's just how the cookie crumbles.




This is just a part of why I don't care for all the Cris Angel Mindgames that Dallas plays with the salary cap. They force themselves into a corner and force fans to hate their own players because those guys can't play up to their ridiculous cap numbers in the twilights of their careers. This doesn't even get into the aspect of how these cap heavy contracts affect later decisions.

I don't know with absolute certainty that the numbers Spotrac puts out are 100% correct. It really doesn't matter because they likely aren't off to such an extent that it would change the practical implications of how Dallas works the cap.
 

Hoofbite

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bkight13;5011628 said:
If they are 5m under the cap this year and roll it over to next year, they will have a cap of 127m instead of 122m. There is no payback, except for the one-time option of borrowing 3m in future cap space that was offered last year and wasn't used as far as I know.

You're missing the point. The cap space they are creating right now is only made by guaranteeing money and increasing the cap charges for these players in the future.

They take the base salary and divide it across the remaining years as cap charges.

That is borrowing from the future and if you get your rollover space by borrowing from the future, you aren't doing anything but moving numbers around. No additional cap space because it's already been spoken before.
 

CowboyStar88

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Hoofbite;5011648 said:
Here's one of my problems with all the smoke and mirrors the team has been doing with the cap.

They are:

1. Setting themselves up to be in a situation where they can't cut a guy for a couple of years because the cap charge is too high to absorb.

2. Setting the player up to be in a situation where his performance doesn't meet the expectations of his cap charge.

3. Setting the fans up to hate the player because of #2.


Here's a small graphic I created for illustration purposes. It's based on Spotracs numbers of Carr's contract. This assumes they can spread the restructured money into the option year. I don't know if they can or they can't, it really doesn't matter because this is simply an illustration and the principle doesn't change one bit if they can't. It likely makes the entire situation worse as that additional 2.7M would have to be redistributed to the years left on the actual contract. But, this is how Spotrac has listed his new cap charges so that's what I am going with.

http://i5.***BLOCKED***/albums/y188/thehoofbite/1-1.png

  • The dashed lines/bars are what the contract looked like prior to the restructure.
  • The solid bars are the new figures.
  • The "Cut Charge" is the amount the team would have to absorb if the player were not on the roster for that particular season, assuming they took it all at once.

Going back to my list above:



Brandon Carr's spot is now secure for at least 3 more seasons regardless of performance. The team cannot take the cap hits for 2014 and 2015 that would come current if they cut him. It's likely secure for 4 more seasons as if they cut him prior to 2016, they'd actually be carrying more dead money than the amount of cap space that they would free up in cutting him.

Dallas is now forced to keep the guy no matter what. If he plays like Terrence Newman it likely doesn't matter at all because they've saddled the salary cap with large charges.



This is a topic I've discussed in the past. I've talked about it in terms of the cap penalties in how Dallas tried to swindle the cap with Austin and I've talked about it in regards to Spencer as well to some extent. IMO, what it comes down to is:

A) The salary cap is practically the only real limit on player acquisition.

B) How a player should be judged should not be based on his average base salary or average yearly amount. It should be based on what you would expect his salary cap charge would get you.


If you are having a player eat 10% of your salary cap, you should expect that guy to perform on that level regardless of what his base salary is. Brandon Carr is not the best CB in the NFL and in all honesty, he probably wouldn't have come in at Top 10 based on last years performance. Maybe even Top 20. He just wasn't all that great. His new cap charges of 12M or more are likely on par with any player in the Top 5 for his position.

Over the span of 2014-2016, I think it's likely he's one of the higher cap charges at the CB position in the league. I don't know but I would suspect there are few players who are going to eat more over that span.

He is now being put in a position to where he absolutely has to play like a Top 5 CB. If not, Dallas is losing out because they could have used some of that cap space elsewhere. Of course the best-case scenario for the flipside would be that Dallas is benefitting from a ridiculously low cap charge for the 1st two seasons of the contract but that's completely erased for this last season because he didn't play anywhere close to Top 5 so the realized benefit in having a low cap number practically didn't exist.

And here's another thing I've mentioned before. Dallas is treating player performance like it's sitting on an appreciation curve. Like there is some guarantee that Carr's performance will increase right along with the cap figures. That's misguided and quite-frankly delusional. Players have a limited lifespan and their performance generally follows a depreciation curve. As players age, their performance tends to trail off. This isn't a new idea or anything groundbreaking. For most players, it's the truth.

Dallas is banking on their guys being the exception to the rule in that these guys will play at high, and ever increasing levels, all throughout the contract.

Let me ask a question:

When is a player more likely to validate a high cap number

A) At the beginning of a contract while the player is in his prime?

or

B) At the end of the contract when he has passed through his prime and is now entering into the twilight years?


The answer is obvious but Dallas treats players in a counterintuitive manner.

This, IMO, is why Ozzie Newsome said that the Ravens don't restructure unless they foresee a guy being on the roster for the entire duration of the contract or unless they are getting great value. When you sign a mid-tier FA and he develops into a stud at his position, you can restructure for cap relief because his cap number is still catching up to the performance he gives you. When you force the player to chase the cap number, then you have to make decisions about cutting a guy too soon or too late and ultimately carry dead money.



This is simple. People don't like seeing big fat cap charges for guys who aren't performing. At 12M, it's likely some will view that as too much. I have zero doubt that in 2-3 years people will hate Brandon Carr because his cap figure is so high relative to what he is actually doing on the field. It's happened with guys in the past, it will happen with Carr if he doesn't live up to expectations. That's just how the cookie crumbles.




This is just a part of why I don't care for all the Cris Angel Mindgames that Dallas plays with the salary cap. They force themselves into a corner and force fans to hate their own players because those guys can't play up to their ridiculous cap numbers in the twilights of their careers. This doesn't even get into the aspect of how these cap heavy contracts affect later decisions.

I don't know with absolute certainty that the numbers Spotrac puts out are 100% correct. It really doesn't matter because they likely aren't off to such an extent that it would change the practical implications of how Dallas works the cap.

Where I agree with everyone you said. The one thing I would want to say is who cares if it sets up the fans to hate said player. We need to get over ourselves and stop being so damn petty with that crap. it isn't the players fault he got the contract. just my .02
 

Nightman

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Hoofbite;5011653 said:
You're missing the point. The cap space they are creating right now is only made by guaranteeing money and increasing the cap charges for these players in the future.

They take the base salary and divide it across the remaining years as cap charges.

That is borrowing from the future and if you get your rollover space by borrowing from the future, you aren't doing anything but moving numbers around. No additional cap space because it's already been spoken before.

I understand your point, I just disagree with the dire outlook. Teams will always have a few bad contracts, but that is offset by the tremendous value they get early in the deal. The cap is almost always going up, so why saddle the team with bad early deals instead of bad late deals when they have less of an impact.

You talk about the Ravens, but they have to cut 3-4 starters to get under the cap and even more to sign Flacco. Reed, Kruger, Ellerbe, Boldin and McKinnie are all on the cutting block. They have been great at drafting replacements, but not every team has an Ozzie Newsome.
 

Fla Cowpoke

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The problem with all this is that when talking about the salary cap you are talking about monopoly money. It isn't real. Therefore there really isn't any penalty for moving money around.

All these restructures do is give the players their money up front instead of making them wait for their 16 game checks. They are happy about that, the team is happy because they get relief on the cap.

I will say that you want to be careful about who you restructure...if you think a player isn't going to be there for the majority of their contract it's probably not a great idea to restructure them. I have some worries about the Livings and Bernadeau deals.

Dallas also makes these moves with knowledge of their entire team's financial positions in a given year. It's pretty clever and it's the norm throughout the league.

If they ever decide they want to clean the books, it basically only would take one to two years of sitting out in free agency at most to do it.

I really think people worrying over this stuff should find something better to do.
 

Idgit

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Fla Cowpoke;5011685 said:
The problem with all this is that when talking about the salary cap you are talking about monopoly money. It isn't real. Therefore there really isn't any penalty for moving money around.

All these restructures do is give the players their money up front instead of making them wait for their 16 game checks. They are happy about that, the team is happy because they get relief on the cap.

I will say that you want to be careful about who you restructure...if you think a player isn't going to be there for the majority of their contract it's probably not a great idea to restructure them. I have some worries about the Livings and Bernadeau deals.

Dallas also makes these moves with knowledge of their entire team's financial positions in a given year. It's pretty clever and it's the norm throughout the league.

If they ever decide they want to clean the books, it basically only would take one to two years of sitting out in free agency at most to do it.

I really think people worrying over this stuff should find something better to do.

Resort to complaining about coaching challenges and our conditioning or medical staff.
 

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Wood;5011508 said:
I know exactly what they are doing. Call it what you want...progress, expected cap reshuffling, etc. They are pushing money down the road on aging players (Whitten, Ware, Romo) and players with huge contracts (Carr). The problem is that football is extremely violent and these old players break down quicker than we like. That's why Dallas is always absorbing dead money cap hits and signing Livingstons, Bernadeau of the world. My biggest issue is that Dallas front office thinks they are on top of it but clearly their results don't support that.

Did the Cowboys get a new player? Who is this Whitten character?
 

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Hoofbite;5011648 said:
Here's one of my problems with all the smoke and mirrors the team has been doing with the cap.

They are:

1. Setting themselves up to be in a situation where they can't cut a guy for a couple of years because the cap charge is too high to absorb.

2. Setting the player up to be in a situation where his performance doesn't meet the expectations of his cap charge.

3. Setting the fans up to hate the player because of #2.


Here's a small graphic I created for illustration purposes. It's based on Spotracs numbers of Carr's contract. This assumes they can spread the restructured money into the option year. I don't know if they can or they can't, it really doesn't matter because this is simply an illustration and the principle doesn't change one bit if they can't. It likely makes the entire situation worse as that additional 2.7M would have to be redistributed to the years left on the actual contract. But, this is how Spotrac has listed his new cap charges so that's what I am going with.

http://i5.***BLOCKED***/albums/y188/thehoofbite/1-1.png

  • The dashed lines/bars are what the contract looked like prior to the restructure.
  • The solid bars are the new figures.
  • The "Cut Charge" is the amount the team would have to absorb if the player were not on the roster for that particular season, assuming they took it all at once.

Going back to my list above:



Brandon Carr's spot is now secure for at least 3 more seasons regardless of performance. The team cannot take the cap hits for 2014 and 2015 that would come current if they cut him. It's likely secure for 4 more seasons as if they cut him prior to 2016, they'd actually be carrying more dead money than the amount of cap space that they would free up in cutting him.

Dallas is now forced to keep the guy no matter what. If he plays like Terrence Newman it likely doesn't matter at all because they've saddled the salary cap with large charges.



This is a topic I've discussed in the past. I've talked about it in terms of the cap penalties in how Dallas tried to swindle the cap with Austin and I've talked about it in regards to Spencer as well to some extent. IMO, what it comes down to is:

A) The salary cap is practically the only real limit on player acquisition.

B) How a player should be judged should not be based on his average base salary or average yearly amount. It should be based on what you would expect his salary cap charge would get you.


If you are having a player eat 10% of your salary cap, you should expect that guy to perform on that level regardless of what his base salary is. Brandon Carr is not the best CB in the NFL and in all honesty, he probably wouldn't have come in at Top 10 based on last years performance. Maybe even Top 20. He just wasn't all that great. His new cap charges of 12M or more are likely on par with any player in the Top 5 for his position.

Over the span of 2014-2016, I think it's likely he's one of the higher cap charges at the CB position in the league. I don't know but I would suspect there are few players who are going to eat more over that span.

He is now being put in a position to where he absolutely has to play like a Top 5 CB. If not, Dallas is losing out because they could have used some of that cap space elsewhere. Of course the best-case scenario for the flipside would be that Dallas is benefitting from a ridiculously low cap charge for the 1st two seasons of the contract but that's completely erased for this last season because he didn't play anywhere close to Top 5 so the realized benefit in having a low cap number practically didn't exist.

And here's another thing I've mentioned before. Dallas is treating player performance like it's sitting on an appreciation curve. Like there is some guarantee that Carr's performance will increase right along with the cap figures. That's misguided and quite-frankly delusional. Players have a limited lifespan and their performance generally follows a depreciation curve. As players age, their performance tends to trail off. This isn't a new idea or anything groundbreaking. For most players, it's the truth.

Dallas is banking on their guys being the exception to the rule in that these guys will play at high, and ever increasing levels, all throughout the contract.

Let me ask a question:

When is a player more likely to validate a high cap number

A) At the beginning of a contract while the player is in his prime?

or

B) At the end of the contract when he has passed through his prime and is now entering into the twilight years?


The answer is obvious but Dallas treats players in a counterintuitive manner.

This, IMO, is why Ozzie Newsome said that the Ravens don't restructure unless they foresee a guy being on the roster for the entire duration of the contract or unless they are getting great value. When you sign a mid-tier FA and he develops into a stud at his position, you can restructure for cap relief because his cap number is still catching up to the performance he gives you. When you force the player to chase the cap number, then you have to make decisions about cutting a guy too soon or too late and ultimately carry dead money.



This is simple. People don't like seeing big fat cap charges for guys who aren't performing. At 12M, it's likely some will view that as too much. I have zero doubt that in 2-3 years people will hate Brandon Carr because his cap figure is so high relative to what he is actually doing on the field. It's happened with guys in the past, it will happen with Carr if he doesn't live up to expectations. That's just how the cookie crumbles.




This is just a part of why I don't care for all the Cris Angel Mindgames that Dallas plays with the salary cap. They force themselves into a corner and force fans to hate their own players because those guys can't play up to their ridiculous cap numbers in the twilights of their careers. This doesn't even get into the aspect of how these cap heavy contracts affect later decisions.

I don't know with absolute certainty that the numbers Spotrac puts out are 100% correct. It really doesn't matter because they likely aren't off to such an extent that it would change the practical implications of how Dallas works the cap.

This is, IMO, an excellent post. Doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, I applaud the effort put into it.

Thank you for doing this Hoof.

For what it's worth, I agree. I think this is exactly what holds this franchise back. We do this time and time again. At some point, I think you have to change the dynamics and go forward with a new way of doing business.
 
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