Ellis & Glover Cap Hit, Adam?

[Eskimo]

$7.2M of cap room is way too much for a backup NT who has gotten old and lost much of his ability as a pass rusher. We need to groom Fergy's replacement at NT and can use the roster spot created by Glover's dismissal. I doubt we can get anything of value for him in a trade this year due to his large salary, age and decline in production.

We can easily find an interior OL who better fits our scheme with the $3.5M freed up by letting LA go. His inability to make blocks in space is a large factor in our ability to establish a running game.

Ellis' cap figure is reasonable for a good situational pass rusher for the nickel. I would try and keep him. He was by far our best pass rusher this year and should be good for another couple of years in that role. BP needs to mend some fences this offseason with him. If he can't, he should at least try to pry a 3rd rounder from someone because Ellis is a quality 4-3 DE who gets 7-9 sacks/year and plays the run well - those players don't grow on trees, especially not for $3M/year.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Ellis' cap figure is reasonable for a good situational pass rusher for the nickel.

those are also the very reasons why we should trade Ellis, reasonable contract and he has something left, a 3rd, or even a 4th, for your situational pass rusher in the nickel is a heck of a bargain

 

[wileedog]

Considering the pieces we have... I'd go with a big line.

On the big side we have book ends (FA, TT and RP)
Guard - LA
Center - AG

On the small side we have
Guard - MR
Center - AJ

I don't disagree with you, but just to play Devil's advocate the issue I have is that at this point all of the "big" pieces we have are unreliable.

Allen may survive this season, but certainly not next year, and his performance just keeps regressing. Flo had one good year after signing the contract in 2003, but was very inconsistent in 2004 and looked about the same in 2005 before getting hurt. We might be talking about his contract and its value soon too. Gurode has always been a mystery - this guy looks like he should be so much better than he is, yet somehow the pieces never add up. I wouldn't at all be shocked if Bill decided to cut bait with him this year.

Pettiti will certainly improve with a year of strength training, but how much? He's got a long way to go.

On the 'small' side Al was solid last year - don't know what happened to him this year. Perhaps a 'sophmore slump' of some kind. I think he can still be better than he was this year. Rivera will probably be better with a stronger back, and Peterman is still young untapped potential.

I don't see a compelling reason to go 'big' considering that the two best 'big' guys we have may be gone in a year or two, another may not make it back this offseason, and the last is a 6th round pick. That being said, the small guys are certainly full of question marks as well. Its almost a coin flip at this point.

Either way, agreed they should pick man or zone/trap blocking and stick with it, and draft/sign accordingly. Most of all I'd like to see a better O-line coach brought in (Tice?) and draft/sign along his philosophies instead of just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.

 

[jksmith269]

Interesting -- if we think we can get a 3 or 4 for Glover, is it worth the 1.5 mill of cap space?

According to Adams numbers it'd be a savings of 6 million to trade or cut him.

 

[playit12]

I don't disagree with you, but just to play Devil's advocate the issue I have is that at this point all of the "big" pieces we have are unreliable.

Allen may survive this season, but certainly not next year, and his performance just keeps regressing. Flo had one good year after signing the contract in 2003, but was very inconsistent in 2004 and looked about the same in 2005 before getting hurt. We might be talking about his contract and its value soon too. Gurode has always been a mystery - this guy looks like he should be so much better than he is, yet somehow the pieces never add up. I wouldn't at all be shocked if Bill decided to cut bait with him this year.

Pettiti will certainly improve with a year of strength training, but how much? He's got a long way to go.

On the 'small' side Al was solid last year - don't know what happened to him this year. Perhaps a 'sophmore slump' of some kind. I think he can still be better than he was this year. Rivera will probably be better with a stronger back, and Peterman is still young untapped potential.

I don't see a compelling reason to go 'big' considering that the two best 'big' guys we have may be gone in a year or two, another may not make it back this offseason, and the last is a 6th round pick. That being said, the small guys are certainly full of question marks as well. Its almost a coin flip at this point.

Either way, agreed they should pick man or zone/trap blocking and stick with it, and draft/sign accordingly. Most of all I'd like to see a better O-line coach brought in (Tice?) and draft/sign along his philosophies instead of just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks.

Even when inconsistent I still think that FA is the best lineman on our Team. LT is an extremely hard position to fill with anyone that is even average. Just look how many times this year Walter Jones only looked decent if you need further proof. We are lucky to have Flozell.

I think Larry is on the downward slide, and I mentioned drafting a replacement, but we don't have anyone on roster right now that I'd put in there. Last year we got one of the supposed best FAs available at Guard, and I don't think he's been an improvement over Larry? So really you are talking about drafting someone there too. You can only replace so many guys at once.

Al has been consistent both years in my opinion... I just feel teams have discovered his weaknesses at this point. His upside seems to be the most limited of our linemen. Rivera should get better, I just don't know if he's a good fit.

Mostly I see it as this... Our Big guys have much more potential than our small guys. Also it would be just too costly to replace our Big Guys for Small guys, while we could certainly replace our small guys at this point.

 

[AdamJT13]

According to Adams numbers it'd be a savings of 6 million to trade or cut him.

I think he meant the difference between taking a $1.2 million hit by getting rid of him before the league year begins or holding onto him for a while and trading him but taking a $2.7 million hit.

I'm not positive, but I don't think we'll be able to trade him without paying his $1.5 million roster bonus first, since it's due on the first day of the league year, and that's usually the first day of the trading period.

 

[AbeBeta]

I think he meant the difference between taking a $1.2 million hit by getting rid of him before the league year begins or holding onto him for a while and trading him but taking a $2.7 million hit.

yep -- that's what I was asking.

I think it comes down to what we think the market is for the guy - really you get very little trade action until you get closer to the draft so we'd have to take the extra cap hit if we planned to move him. i can see taking on that dead money if there was a first day pick (or even a high 4th) involved.

 

[Eskimo]

yep -- that's what I was asking.

I think it comes down to what we think the market is for the guy - really you get very little trade action until you get closer to the draft so we'd have to take the extra cap hit if we planned to move him. i can see taking on that dead money if there was a first day pick (or even a high 4th) involved.

If we wanted to move Glover we should have done it last offseason. His level of play tailed off pretty significantly this year which is going to be a red flag for any team interested in him. His salary is also quite high and he is only under contract for one more year.

I suspect he will be cut or there will be a renegotiation before the season starts.

 

[AdamJT13]

If we wanted to move Glover we should have done it last offseason. His level of play tailed off pretty significantly this year which is going to be a red flag for any team interested in him. His salary is also quite high and he is only under contract for one more year.

I suspect he will be cut or there will be a renegotiation before the season starts.

If we did trade him, his new almost certainly would renegotiate. We'd probably even let them discuss a new contract before the trade.

 

[playit12]

If we did trade him, his new almost certainly would renegotiate. We'd probably even let them discuss a new contract before the trade.

That would probably be a condition of the trade. That isn't all that uncommon as I recall with older players entering into the high base salary years of their contracts.

Of course it would really help if they have a new CBA by then.

Adam, do you know if future bonuses are transfered with the contract, or is it just base salaries?

 

[Cheap Shot Artist]

Not sure how we can get rid of Allen....who will replace?

Toniu Fonoti UFA Vikings

 

[junk]

The last concern IMO is the very good criticsm that I believe S. Spadowski brought up. Our line right now is a little schizophrenic. We have 'smaller', more agile guys like Johnson, Rivera and Peterman, as well as big, more immobile guys like Allen, Gurode and Pettiti. The combination isn't working well, as you can see every time we try to run one of those train-wreck screen plays - some guys are getting where they are supposed to be, and some guys aren't, and it only takes one not getting there to blow the play up.

Bill usually opts for a more athletic line. Removing LA from the equation would be one step towards creating a better functioning O-line, even if there is a slight decrease in talent (assuming LA has more left than I think he does, even).

Gonna be interesting to see how this plays out.

Looking at BP's past, I'd agree with the comment on a more athletic line except for one thing....explain Peterman.

 

[AdamJT13]

Adam, do you know if future bonuses are transfered with the contract, or is it just base salaries?

The new team assumes the entire contract, including future bonuses. For example, if we trade Ellis on the first day of the league year, his new team will owe him a $500,000 roster bonus 15 days later.

 

[junk]

If we did trade him, his new almost certainly would renegotiate. We'd probably even let them discuss a new contract before the trade.

So, Adam, refresh my memory. How would the cap be affected if Dallas decided to renegotiate?

They are still on the hook for the signing bonus I would suspect. But could they sign a new deal with lower salaries replacing higher ones.

Take Glover as an example. He is still due to count the remainder of his signing bonus, but could the team reduce his 2006 salary without much of an adverse affect on future cap years?

 

[AdamJT13]

So, Adam, refresh my memory. How would the cap be affected if Dallas decided to renegotiate?

They are still on the hook for the signing bonus I would suspect. But could they sign a new deal with lower salaries replacing higher ones.

Take Glover as an example. He is still due to count the remainder of his signing bonus, but could the team reduce his 2006 salary without much of an adverse affect on future cap years?

Glover isn't signed for future years, so any pay cut he took would just reduce his cap number for this season anyway. But no, if you simply renegotiate base salaries, it doesn't change how the bonuses are handled.

 

[junk]

Glover isn't signed for future years, so any pay cut he took would just reduce his cap number for this season anyway. But no, if you simply renegotiate base salaries, it doesn't change how the bonuses are handled.

So, if he renegotiated, he'd still be due $1.2 million in bonus money this year, plus whatever his new salary would be, plus any additional "new" bonus money?

Thanks.

 

[Eskimo]

If we did trade him, his new almost certainly would renegotiate. We'd probably even let them discuss a new contract before the trade.

Isn't part of the problem that his bonus is due to be paid on the first day of the new football calendar? That doesn't leave much time to discuss trading him or working out a new contract with the new team.

 

[AdamJT13]

Isn't part of the problem that his bonus is due to be paid on the first day of the new football calendar? That doesn't leave much time to discuss trading him or working out a new contract with the new team.

Right, that's why it was asked whether holding onto him in order to trade him later was worth an extra $1.5 million against the cap. Would you rather take a $1.2 million hit to release him or take a $2.7 million hit to trade him for a third-round pick?

 

[AdamJT13]

So, if he renegotiated, he'd still be due $1.2 million in bonus money this year, plus whatever his new salary would be, plus any additional "new" bonus money?

Right if we just renegotiated his contract to keep him, we'd still take that $1.2 million cap charge for his previous signing bonus. Plus anything new (salary, bonus, etc.).

 

[Eskimo]

Right, that's why it was asked whether holding onto him in order to trade him later was worth an extra $1.5 million against the cap. Would you rather take a $1.2 million hit to release him or take a $2.7 million hit to trade him for a third-round pick?

I think the problem is that it is a gamble as there may very well be no team that is interested in giving us picks for Glover at this stage of his career knowing that we will likely release him if we can't work out a deal.

In general, the market tends not to be favourable for 32 year old DTs. I would be shocked if we got a 3rd rounder. I'd consider us lucky to get a 5th rounder for Glover.

However, if a hypothetical deal exists for a 3rd rounder, I would take the cap hit for the pick.