Ellis improving legacy

Ellis never broke 10 sacks his whole NFL career, and we are talking about HOF? Ellis played with Ware before Wade got here and he still didn't break ten sacks... We had plenty of the same players Wade's first year as we did Parcells last year, so nobody can say it wasn't because Ellis wasn't surrounded by good players.

Wade Phillips puts a lot of players in the Pro-Bowl.. Look at Marcellus Wiley...

The fact that Greg Ellis was user jam Winslow at the line is more of a tribute to Wade and the defensive coaching staff, than anybody else...
 
gmsquid;2256184 said:
Ellis never broke 10 sacks his whole NFL career,

Ellis had 12.5 sacks last year in limited reps. Made his first Pro Bowl.

gmsquid;2256184 said:
and we are talking about HOF?

Granted, Ellis is probably not going to make the Hall unless he gets 16 sacks every year for the next 4 years, and that still may not get him in. After checking on the stats I have changed my position. Got a little ahead of myself on that proposition.

gmsquid;2256184 said:
and we are talking about HOF?]Ellis played with Ware before Wade got here and he still didn't break ten sacks... We had plenty of the same players Wade's first year as we did Parcells last year, so nobody can say it wasn't because Ellis wasn't surrounded by good players.

2005 Ellis 8 sacks, Demarcus Ware 8 sacks
2006 Ellis 4.5 sacks in year he broke his leg. Ware 11.5 sacks
2007 Ellis 12.5 sacks limited playing time, Ware 14.5 sacks

Looks like very similar production to all world Ware. I think your quote helps my position by stating the players kept getting better over the past five years and Ellis has increased production. I doubt this trend will continue because he is entering his eleventh year, but I would not be surprised either.

gmsquid;2256184 said:
Wade Phillips puts a lot of players in the Pro-Bowl.. Look at Marcellus Wiley...

The fact that Greg Ellis was user jam Winslow at the line is more of a tribute to Wade and the defensive coaching staff, than anybody else...

Philips and the coaching staff should receive credit for seeing the potential and utilizing it. But Parcell's staff moved him to OLB in the first place. Everything the previous and current coaching staff have asked him to do up to this point he has been successful at.

The ability to be productive in many areas, especially against the run and even in coverage is what makes him special in my book.
 
Va_BoysFan4 Life;2256089 said:
I'm in total agreement with you. We all know that he will never be considered for the HOF and I too hope that the Boys take it all so that he can possibly go out on top. I think when we look back, he will be mentioned as a solid Cowboy with the like of Jethro Pugh, Leon Lett, etc. Those that were solid but did not do a whole lot to stand out.

Sorry, but Jethro Pugh had a COUPLE of double digit sack seasons, from the DT position. And for a few seasons, Leon Lett was considered one of the best, if not the best, at his position.


Ellis never dominated like either of those guys. Right now, Ellis is solid to very good. If he can string another 2 or 3 double digit sack seasons together THEN he gets to the Jethro Pugh (who was integral to the DOOMSDAY D) and Leon Lett (important part of the dominant 90's D) level. Of course he would have to have won a ring or two as well.


If anything, Ellis may be on the Jimmy Jeffcoat level. Although Jeffcoat was a more explosive pass rusher who posted multiple double digit sack seasons ON WOEFUL DALLAS COWBOY TEAMS (during the waning Landry years).
 
cowboyeric8;2255609 said:
Spot on. He has always been a favorite of mine too. Much like Dexter Coakley won't be a Cowboy legacy just because he was on the sucky team.

I liked Coakely alot. But truth is, just like Ellis, he was an above average player on a bad team. On a good team, neither of them has (as in Ellis case), or would (as in Coakley's) really stand out.
 
I'd have to see Ellis as a goal line TE a la Ekuban before I'd say he's versatile.

Ellis is not a HOFer, but should be a Cowboys HOFer. If he plays at last year's level another two-three years you could consider him for the Ring of Honor.
 
ltrainer28;2256423 said:
2005 Ellis 8 sacks, Demarcus Ware 8 sacks
2006 Ellis 4.5 sacks in year he broke his leg. Ware 11.5 sacks
2007 Ellis 12.5 sacks limited playing time, Ware 14.5 sacks

Looks like very similar production to all world Ware. I think your quote helps my position by stating the players kept getting better over the past five years and Ellis has increased production. I doubt this trend will continue because he is entering his eleventh year, but I would not be surprised either.

That is because Ware is getting the double-teams and Ellis is not. Further, Greg gets his numbers in the beginning of the season and he fades by the end of the year. The same thing happened in 2007, with his best production ever. When Wade stopped utilizing plenty of his exotic bliz packages by the end of the season and Dallas was primarily just rushing 3 or 4, Greg didn't get to the QB by the end of the year.

Philips and the coaching staff should receive credit for seeing the potential and utilizing it. But Parcell's staff moved him to OLB in the first place. Everything the previous and current coaching staff have asked him to do up to this point he has been successful at.

The ability to be productive in many areas, especially against the run and even in coverage is what makes him special in my book.

Ellis was jamming Winslow at the line to disrupt his route. Disrupting the route is a matter of a DL overpowering a TE. Most DL should be able to do something, especially when they outweight the TE by 30 lbs. He wasn't covering Winslow and further, Greg Ellis is absolutely horrible in pass coverage. Did you see him against the Patriots last year?

Greg Ellis is solid at his job. He is nothing spectacular.
 
IRVING — Ever since Bill Parcells moved him from defensive end to outside linebacker two years ago, Greg Ellis has expected the unexpected.

But Ellis admits that didn't stop him from being shocked last week when Dallas Cowboys coach Wade Phillips and defensive coordinator Brian Stewart told him he would defend Cleveland Browns tight end Kellen Winslow in the opener.

“I was like, ‘Are you sure?'” Ellis said Monday. “I'm like, ‘OK, man. You want me to get up, out and in, all the way around? You want me to be on him, and not just in the flats?' They're like, ‘Yeah, he's yours. Stay on him.'”

As it turned out, Ellis pretty much just jammed Winslow at the line of scrimmage whenever he lined up in the slot or out wide before releasing him to the defensive backs. But there were times in the Cowboys' 28-10 demolition of the Browns when Ellis made like a cornerback and shadowed Winslow downfield.

On those occasions, Ellis said he felt more like a cornerback than a linebacker in Phillips' 3-4 scheme.
“Dropping back, I was like, ‘Please, get him, sack him. Hurry up!'” said Ellis, who added that he consulted with inactive injured cornerback Terence Newman before the start of the game.

“I was like, ‘It looks like we are going through with this thing, so give me some last-minute pointers,'” Ellis said. “He talked about the stance, and some of those things he said helped me out a lot. (Starting corners Adam Jones and Anthony Henry) also helped me out a lot, talking to them during the games.”
After helping limit Winslow to a paltry five-catch, 47-yard performance, Ellis is wondering whether he might be asked to do similar duty this week when the Cowboys face the Eagles and tight end L.J. Smith, who is looking for a breakout season after injuries limited him to a career-low 22 receptions in 2007.
In Philadelphia's 38-3 thrashing of St. Louis on Sunday, Smith caught five passes for 39 yards and a touchdown as the Eagles amassed 522 offensive yards.

The TD reception matched his career total from last season and gave him 17 for his six-year career.
“L.J. is very good down in there (the red zone) and had been very successful there, and it looks like he's just kind of picked up where he left off before,” Eagles coach Andy Reid told reporters in Philadelphia on Monday.

Ellis said he wouldn't have a problem trying to do to Smith what he did to Winslow.
“If that's what they want me to do, that's what we'll do,” Ellis said. “But my heart is at where I hope my body is at next time.”

That, of course, would be outside linebacker, where he registered a career-best 12 sacks last season en route to the first Pro Bowl appearance of his 10-year career.

“If I had to pick my poison, I'd rather be going forward than going backward,” Ellis said.
But the Cowboys know Ellis will do whatever is asked of him.
“He's a team player,” Phillips said, “Whether you want him rushing the passer, hitting someone, playing higher, he'll do whatever you want.”

Phillips said the strategy the Cowboys used against Winslow worked well.
“(Ellis) only missed hitting him a couple of times, and the times we didn't hit him, he caught it,” Phillips said. “That did slow down our rush, but it helped our coverage, and that's why we did it.”

Said Ellis, “They put me in some places to do some things I never had to do in football before. I'm going to do what I can do to try to help us win football games.
“You've got to embrace it, or you've got to go.”
 
Greg Ellis is as far from being a HOF player as I am. No chance- not even close.
 
ltrainer28;2256423 said:
Ellis had 12.5 sacks last year in limited reps. Made his first Pro Bowl.



Granted, Ellis is probably not going to make the Hall unless he gets 16 sacks every year for the next 4 years, and that still may not get him in. After checking on the stats I have changed my position. Got a little ahead of myself on that proposition.



2005 Ellis 8 sacks, Demarcus Ware 8 sacks
2006 Ellis 4.5 sacks in year he broke his leg. Ware 11.5 sacks
2007 Ellis 12.5 sacks limited playing time, Ware 14.5 sacks

Looks like very similar production to all world Ware. I think your quote helps my position by stating the players kept getting better over the past five years and Ellis has increased production. I doubt this trend will continue because he is entering his eleventh year, but I would not be surprised either.



Philips and the coaching staff should receive credit for seeing the potential and utilizing it. But Parcell's staff moved him to OLB in the first place. Everything the previous and current coaching staff have asked him to do up to this point he has been successful at.

The ability to be productive in many areas, especially against the run and even in coverage is what makes him special in my book.

Ware gets double and triple teamed while Ellis is benefitting from that with only having to generally beat the OT. He does run thru most RB blocks.

Ware is still head and shoulders above Ellis. But I agree with you he has been underappreciated and still is. He's better than solid but no where near HOF.

Zack Thomas will be a HOFer, BTW.

I suspect Ware will also although he'll need to continue the benefit of playing on a very good team. Spencer will Ellis along with an explosive offense may make Ware the DPY and MVP if Dallas wins the SB. Of course he would have to beat out at least Romo for the MVP if we do.
 
Sarge;2255475 said:
Ellis is not a HOF'er and he won't have the greatest legacy here either. Having said that, he has been one of the most underappreciated players on this team for a long long time.

The word "solid" comes to mind.


This is right where my thinking is on Ellis. I don't think he's going to get the Hall of Fame nod, unless he some how plays 3 more years beyond this one and, along with this one, produces double digit sack numbers each of those years. If he gets 10+ this year, and the next 3 years as well, then he might move into consideration for a Hall of Fame nod, but I can't see him lasting another 3 years after this, let alone getting 10+ sacks in each of those years.

Still I'll always be proud to have had him as a Dallas Cowboy.
 
Yes Mr. Ellis has been solid. The greatest Dallas defensive player that will never be a HOFer is Darrren Woodson. We're still missing his talents. Darren was an absolute beast.
 
jaybird;2258076 said:
Yes Mr. Ellis has been solid. The greatest Dallas defensive player that will never be a HOFer is Darrren Woodson. We're still missing his talents. Darren was an absolute beast.


There was another Safety that is not in the HOF I would probably give that title to. JMO.
 
Ellis == Tony Tolbert

An average player that can excel if provided enough talent around him to limit the double teams. Tolbert was just an average who happen to have Charles Haley on the otherside.

If you can't at least occasionally beat an offensive linemen when he doesn't have help you don't deserve to play in the league.

Ellis == Average. Average players look better with great players opposite than them. Tolbert had Haley, Ellis has Ware
 
Ellis isn't going to the Hall of Fame of course.

BUT, he could well end up in the Ring of Honor.

I think the Tolbert comparison makes some sense but probably slights Ellis a bit. After all Ellis has 10 more career sacks than Tolbert already.

Because sacks were not an official stat until 1981 or so Ellis actually ranks second in team history right now. He also ranks first in forced fumbles, another stat that became counted at some point in the modern era.

But you look at a Hall of Fame guy and say he needs 100 sacks. Ellis is 30 short and would need to perform at a very high level for 3 more seasons. Unlikely.

All that said 85 or so sacks is very, very possible.
And 85 career sacks is a heck of an achievement.
And having 8 more forced fumbles than Darren Woodson is a heck of an achievement. What Greg Ellis has learned the hard way though is his pro bowl caliber play with tackles and forcing fumbles won't help him, only sacks will. All the average fan and ESPN junkie recognizes is sacks.
 
jterrell;2258122 said:
Ellis isn't going to the Hall of Fame of course.

BUT, he could well end up in the Ring of Honor.

I think the Tolbert comparison makes some sense but probably slights Ellis a bit. After all Ellis has 10 more career sacks than Tolbert already.

Because sacks were not an official stat until 1981 or so Ellis actually ranks second in team history right now. He also ranks first in forced fumbles, another stat that became counted at some point in the modern era.

But you look at a Hall of Fame guy and say he needs 100 sacks. Ellis is 30 short and would need to perform at a very high level for 3 more seasons. Unlikely.

All that said 85 or so sacks is very, very possible.
And 85 career sacks is a heck of an achievement.
And having 8 more forced fumbles than Darren Woodson is a heck of an achievement. What Greg Ellis has learned the hard way though is his pro bowl caliber play with tackles and forcing fumbles won't help him, only sacks will. All the average fan and ESPN junkie recognizes is sacks.

I actually think that Ellis compares more favorably to Jim Jeffcoat. Jeffcoat, like Ellis was a pretty good Pass Rusher but was also a heck of a Run Stopper. I think the comparison is probably better. JMO.
 
nyc;2258120 said:
Ellis == Tony Tolbert

An average player that can excel if provided enough talent around him to limit the double teams. Tolbert was just an average who happen to have Charles Haley on the otherside.

If you can't at least occasionally beat an offensive linemen when he doesn't have help you don't deserve to play in the league.

Ellis == Average. Average players look better with great players opposite than them. Tolbert had Haley, Ellis has Ware

Neither Tolbert nor Ellis are or were average players.
They were just not elite players.
Both guys played long careers at just below pro bowl level with 1 appearance each. They also provided top notch run support and actually knew how to play the game.

Haley was crap most of the time he was here. In Tolbert's Pro Bowl season of 1996, Haley played in 5 games and had 1 sack....

Haley had 34 sacks in his 5 year Cowboy career, over those same 5 years Tony Tolbert had 39 sacks.

And again any chatter about Tolbert getting sacks because of Haley is rather weak banter considering Tolbert had his career best season with Haley sidelined and doing jack squat.
 
jterrell;2258122 said:
Ellis isn't going to the Hall of Fame of course.

BUT, he could well end up in the Ring of Honor.
Not even close
jterrell;2258122 said:
I think the Tolbert comparison makes some sense but probably slights Ellis a bit. After all Ellis has 10 more career sacks than Tolbert already.
Tony Tolbert played 9 season with 54 sacks. He retired due to back problems. Tolberts highest sack total was 12.

Ellis after 9 season had 56 sacks. Ellis highest sack total was 12.5

They look like almost the same exact player. Neither are HoF or RoH candidates.
 
jterrell;2258129 said:
Neither Tolbert nor Ellis are or were average players.
They were just not elite players.
Both guys played long careers at just below pro bowl level with 1 appearance each. They also provided top notch run support and actually knew how to play the game.

Haley was crap most of the time he was here. In Tolbert's Pro Bowl season of 1996, Haley played in 5 games and had 1 sack....

Haley had 34 sacks in his 5 year Cowboy career, over those same 5 years Tony Tolbert had 39 sacks.

And again any chatter about Tolbert getting sacks because of Haley is rather weak banter considering Tolbert had his career best season with Haley sidelined and doing jack squat.

That statement cause you to lose all credibility. Charles Haley was easliy one of the most dominating pass rushers / players in the league during his time and he has 5 SuperBowl rings to prove it.
 

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