Entitlement

[Outlaw Heroes]

Well if your only going for the RKG - I don't know if you would be able to field a very good team - like I said, not too many of those guys around. Lee and Ware types (RKG and talent) get scooped up pretty quick.

Remember the 09 draft.. I remember reading how a few of them were captains on their teams and how they are hard workers ect. - how did that work out...

Look at our 90s team - they certainly weren't saints - you do remember the "White House" - not all of them could be a Moose or Troy.

The NFL and a team is a microcosm of society your gonna have all types.
I have yet to see a team full of RKGs.

Is Dez the RKG? maybe not but he sure has some natural talent and ability and with some work could be one of the best. Sometimes you have to take a shot with guys like that. Not saying I agree or disagree but thats just the way things are.

We disagree on the number of RKGs available out there. You're never going to populate a team entirely with guys like Ware and Lee, but that's more a function of how rare their talent is than it is a function of how rare their character and work ethic are.

The Cowboys entire 2012 and 2011 draft class appears to be made up of RKGs, based upon scouting reports and media reports. Most of those guys will not have the level of talent that Ware and Lee have displayed (though a few, like T. Smith and Mo may) but that can't be the standard. That would be too high a standard even if you ignored RKGs and drafted nothing but guys like Quinton Coples and Janoris Jenkins. There's still plenty of opportunity to draft talented RKGs that don't rise to the level of talent of a DeMarcus Ware or a Sean Lee.


The '90s Cowboys, for all of their off-field indiscretions, were full of RKGs. Irvin was probably one of the ring-leaders of the White House crew, but he was also, by all accounts, the hardest working player on the team and a guy who put team success above personal glory.

There seems to be an assumption that, when we associate the RKG with "character", what we mean is that he doesn't have any off-field issues. The type of "character" we should be concerned with, however, has less to do with whether the player gets himself into the occasional off-field scrape than it does with whether the player is a team-first guy, willing to do whatever it takes to win and ready to put the interests of the team ahead of his own immediate interests. That's why I can claim that Irvin was a RKG but that a guy like T.O., who (so far as I know) has never been charged with drug possession or been accused of sexual assault, wasn't. T.O.'s conduct on the field, on the sidelines and in the locker room were disruptive to every team he played on. Getting arrested with a few grams of cocaine, while perhaps drawing unwanted media attention, could never have done as much damage.

Now it's probably true that guys with significant off-field issues are more likely to be the kind of guys that disrupt a team because of their behavior on the field or sideline (or in the locker room). But Irvin serves as a compelling example of why this shouldn't be assumed to be the case.

Dez looks more like Irvin than like T.O. to me.

 

[nyc-cowboy]

We disagree on the number of RKGs available out there. You're never going to populate a team entirely with guys like Ware and Lee, but that's more a function of how rare their talent is than it is a function of how rare their character and work ethic are.

The Cowboys entire 2012 and 2011 draft class appears to be made up of RKGs, based upon scouting reports and media reports. Most of those guys will not have the level of talent that Ware and Lee have displayed (though a few, like T. Smith and Mo may) but that can't be the standard. That would be too high a standard even if you ignored RKGs and drafted nothing but guys like Quinton Coples and Janoris Jenkins. There's still plenty of opportunity to draft talented RKGs that don't rise to the level of talent of a DeMarcus Ware or a Sean Lee.


The '90s Cowboys, for all of their off-field indiscretions, were full of RKGs. Irvin was probably one of the ring-leaders of the White House crew, but he was also, by all accounts, the hardest working player on the team and a guy who put team success above personal glory.

There seems to be an assumption that, when we associate the RKG with "character", what we mean is that he doesn't have any off-field issues. The type of "character" we should be concerned with, however, has less to do with whether the player gets himself into the occasional off-field scrape than it does with whether the player is a team-first guy, willing to do whatever it takes to win and ready to put the interests of the team ahead of his own immediate interests. That's why I can claim that Irvin was a RKG but that a guy like T.O., who (so far as I know) has never been charged with drug possession or been accused of sexual assault, wasn't. T.O.'s conduct on the field, on the sidelines and in the locker room were disruptive to every team he played on. Getting arrested with a few grams of cocaine, while perhaps drawing unwanted media attention, could never have done as much damage.

Now it's probably true that guys with significant off-field issues are more likely to be the kind of guys that disrupt a team because of their behavior on the field or sideline (or in the locker room). But Irvin serves as a compelling example of why this shouldn't be assumed to be the case.

Dez looks more like Irvin than like T.O. to me.

Well to me, I thought RKG was a high motor, high character type - as you say that puts a team first - thing is if he's out "messin around" and MAYBE getting into trouble, that really isn't a "team first" guy is it?

Now lets say that we knew before hand that Irvin "liked to party" - do we draft him? Does that make him not a RKG.

Like I said there are a WHOLE lotta players between a Packman and a Lee.

As far as Dez - yes in some ways he's like a Irvin - I love the guys passion and intensity on the field - goodness know this team needs intensity - but what does concern me is that there have been reports that he feel asleep ina team meeting his rookie year, him being late to meetings and jason locking him out last year (don't know if this is true), also seems to be some talk about his conditioning and maybe him not exactly giving it his all when the ball is not coming to him.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I am listening to Cowboys Break. Josh Ellis, Nick Eatman, and Derek Eagleton.

Josh Ellis brought up a conversation Albert Breer had with Stephen Jones about entitlement. He is talking at first about Mike Jenkins and how he has no leverage. He has only had one end to end great year, coming off shoulder surgery, and we've had an off season where we added depth and Jenkins thinks he can dictate terms.

He then compares him to following in the footsteps of Greg Ellis, Patrick Crayton, and mentions TO as someone who felt like he was entitled.

Now, this is to set up what I thought was an enlightening quote Breer used from none other than Bill Parcells.

Playing in Dallas "on the main stage. Players can be microwaved into stars, and if they're not careful can inherit a company sense of entitlement."


I don't know about anyone else but I think that statement is so astute as to part of the problem that has existed in Dallas and is what Garrett is looking to erase by his right kinds of guys approach.

Jimmy was someone the players feared. He could take a player who had a sense of entitlement and make him a team first kind of guy because he commanded fear. Jimmy had an aura about him that few coaches have. I think Jimmy was the closest thing to Lombardi as far as someone the players feared as I have ever seen.

I do not see Garrett as someone the players fear. I do see him as someone they respect because of his passion for the game. In that respect he is more like a Landry, but players did fear Landry too.

But Garrett needs guys to buy into the systems and to do that he can't have entitlement in the town where as Parcells noted "the main stage" it can happen so fast. I like that metaphor of microwaved.

To this end I see his staff as probably one of the critical elements of his ultimate success or failure here. The more respect the players have for the coordinators and position coaches the more they will fall in line.

We are seeing a team first crew evolving. I don't think there is any denying that. We still have 2 or 3 superstar players, maybe a few more. The big difference that can happen with this team will be ultimately how many of them don't feel the microwave giving them star status and who keep team first.

I really like that comment by Parcells. I like it a lot.

lol.

When I opened this I thought this was going to be a thread about the overwhelmingly sense of entitlement that Cowboys fans as a whole seem to have.


Cracks me up all the time that just because we're Cowboys fans that so many believe that it's their birth right to win Superbowl Championships on a regular basis.



This was an interesting read as well though.

 

[Hostile]

This is an excellent thread. Where are the stars? Very nice job, everyone. Great perspectives. This is why I read the Zone. Just great...

I gave it one so the usual whiners would have something to make their Friday great.

 

[CCBoy]

ah disagree. it is not more prevalent in Big D.
I know, you says "seems more prevalent"

I think it is actually less in Big D. The problems other teams have with there athaletes is a lot bigger.

Gimme', my guess is that mules, with long pointy ears...keep burrows all smug.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

Well to me, I thought RKG was a high motor, high character type - as you say that puts a team first - thing is if he's out "messin around" and MAYBE getting into trouble, that really isn't a "team first" guy is it?

If the type of messin around he's doing puts the success of the team at risk (for example, by impacting his ability to participate in team activities--and I do mean that to capture a broad range of activities) I agree that he starts to look like a guy who puts his own interests ahead of the team. But if he's able to do his thing while continuing to serve as a constant, shining example to the team, day in and day out, of what it takes to win it all and how much work it requires, then that guy better be considered an RKG or I don't want any part of RKGs.

Look, I'm not saying all of those guys in the White House crew were RKGs. I'm just saying that being in the White House doesn't automatically mean you're not a RKG. I can't accept that any definition of RKG that excludes Irvin is a good definition.

Now lets say that we knew before hand that Irvin "liked to party" - do we draft him? Does that make him not a RKG.

It's your first round pick, so it's worth doing your due diligence. When you speak to his coaches and they tell you that the kid has an uncommon work ethic and commands the respect and admiration of his teammates, such that they take their emotional cues from him (which is a great thing, cause this kid is emotionally electric), you probably conclude he's a RKG that likes to party.

As far as Dez - yes in some ways he's like a Irvin - I love the guys passion and intensity on the field - goodness know this team needs intensity - but what does concern me is that there have been reports that he feel asleep ina team meeting his rookie year, him being late to meetings and jason locking him out last year (don't know if this is true), also seems to be some talk about his conditioning and maybe him not exactly giving it his all when the ball is not coming to him.

Those rumors are cause for concern, if true. On the other hand there is plenty on the public record to suggest that he's busted his tail this off-season and is doing and saying all the right things. I don't believe Garrett would make an exception for this kid. You can't make any exceptions if you're committed to the idea of RKGs. So I'm inclined to believe that either the rumors are not true or that, if true, he was punished severely and (based on reports of his recent conduct) has learned his lesson. Perhaps he's just maturing.

 

[5Stars]

Everbody has entitlement, but some expect it. That's not how entitlement works. Working for a goal is an entitlement.

I hope the Cowboys know that...me too.

:

 

[TwoCentPlain]

When I heard that comment this morning I thought entitlement was a tad strong, at first. Then after some thought throughout the day it seems most true during the Phillips era. Garrett is doing an excellent job of scrubbing the Wade Phillips from the organization.

I can't wait to see what this season brings.

How long can you blame it on Wade Phillips?

Wade Phillips is an excellent coach. Always has been. And Wade is doing just fine with the Texans.

Did you conveniently forget that Jason Garrett was the assistant head coach and OC when the team went 1-7 and got Wade fired? Half of the blame goes to Garrett imo.

 

[nyc-cowboy]

How long can you blame it on Wade Phillips?

Wade Phillips is an excellent coach. Always has been. And Wade is doing just fine with the Texans.

Did you conveniently forget that Jason Garrett was the assistant head coach and OC when the team went 1-7 and got Wade fired? Half of the blame goes to Garrett imo.

He might be a good DC but he is in no way shape or form a HC

 

[nyc-cowboy]

It's your first round pick, so it's worth doing your due diligence. When you speak to his coaches and they tell you that the kid has an uncommon work ethic and commands the respect and admiration of his teammates, such that they take their emotional cues from him (which is a great thing, cause this kid is emotionally electric), you probably conclude he's a RKG that likes to party.

NYC - thats exactly my point - whenever a guy has a "rep for partying" you do run a risk that he might like to party too much. But like you said you might overlook that a bit cause of the talent and work ethic the guy brings to the table,

Those rumors are cause for concern, if true. On the other hand there is plenty on the public record to suggest that he's busted his tail this off-season and is doing and saying all the right things. I don't believe Garrett would make an exception for this kid. You can't make any exceptions if you're committed to the idea of RKGs. So I'm inclined to believe that either the rumors are not true or that, if true, he was punished severely and (based on reports of his recent conduct) has learned his lesson. Perhaps he's just maturing.

NYC - What about Tree - he's giving him another chance isn't he. Why? cause he must see a big upside, no?
Holland the same thing - gave him another chance.
Now both those guys are obviously not the RKG - Tree himself admitted that he wasn't entirely focused on football and Holland came into camp out of shape.

 

[Risen Star]

Seems like the sense of entitlement arrived when the Jones boys decided they were running the team.

Parcells had to change the culture of the team. He said it many times. Because the atmosphere the owner created wasn't conducive to winning football.

 

[Flinger]

I gave it one so the usual whiners would have something to make their Friday great.

Not sure of the star rating system. But, this deserves more than a single star, don't ya think?

Good post, Hos...

 

[Hostile]

Not sure of the star rating system. But, this deserves more than a single star, don't ya think?

Good post, Hos...

Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[DallasInDC]

500k? Try multi- million dollar home. I would know, there are about 5 Cowboys who live in my neighborhood. All live in homes that are a million and up.

Same here. but what is sad is most end up selling and downsize when their careers end.

 

[Hostile]

Same here. but what is sad is most end up selling and downsize when their careers end.

This is true of anyone who comes from nowhere to fortune and has a limited playing time or time as a star. Even Troy Aikman recently sold a 9 million dollar home and he makes millions per year from FOX.

The number one heart surgeon in the state of Arizona is a friend on mine. He is filthy rich. There is only one clue to this in the world beyond his job title. When he was elevated to Chief of Cardiac surgery they insisted that he buy a car befitting the job. So he bought an $80,000 Mercedes.

He lives in a middle class neighborhood, in a house that is maybe worth $250,000 to $280,000, and on days when he is not headed to work he still drives his 2002 Buick instead of his Mercedes.

I have a distinct feeling he will never have to downsize anything because he will never be living above the means he has already secured.

But so many of these athletes think the tit is always going to provide milk. I remember when Jack Clark declared bankruptcy. He was making $2.5 million per year from the Cardinals at the time. I couldn't help but wonder how anyone making that kind of money could go bankrupt. Give me one year of his salary and I can be set for life.

But I guarantee you I would not live in a house where I could never afford the taxes. I would never have kids by scads of women and owe thousands a month in child support. I would never have fleets of cars worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I would never have an expensive piece of jewelry that wasn't a watch.

Yes, the life of a star looks glamorous, until you are no longer relevant. Then it just looks like bankruptcy and mounting debt.

Think about this, buy one apartment complex near a University campus so it will almost always be full of renters. If the mortgage is paid off (and it should be possible at the salaries these guys make) your monthly income can be $10,000 or more depending upon the size of the property.

Most of us will never have that kind of security. Most of these guys never even look at it. I tip my hat to Magic Johnson in particular who took his millions of salary and invested it wisely. He worked for his money, but now his money is working for him.

Each of these guys has the chance for financial freedom. Few will ever find it because they look at money wrongly. The tit does go dry when the career is over unless you have some other gift.

Roger Staubach made more money after his football career was over in some years than he ever made in his entire playing career. He can live lavishly forever and no one will ever wonder why. But that is because he built to that fortune rather than walked into it.

 

[casmith07]

All they should look at is Patrick Crayton's production after getting shipped to San Diego for next to nothing to fear what could happen if they don't buy into the team.

 

[DallasInDC]

Think about this, buy one apartment complex near a University campus so it will almost always be full of renters. If the mortgage is paid off (and it should be possible at the salaries these guys make) your monthly income can be $10,000 or more depending upon the size of the property. .

I own property that I rent out and trust me...the University scene is not as attractive as other areas for rental property. especially in states that have strong renter protection laws. you always have to worry about the cost of repairs and maintenance and the renters who decide they want to live rent free for 3 months because they know you can't kick them out with less notice...unless you want to bring lawyers into the mix which is another expense I prefer not to shell out.

Each of these guys has the chance for financial freedom. Few will ever find it because they look at money wrongly. The tit does go dry when the career is over unless you have some other gift.

Roger Staubach made more money after his football career was over in some years than he ever made in his entire playing career. He can live lavishly forever and no one will ever wonder why. But that is because he built to that fortune rather than walked into it.

I had a neighbor who was an NFL journeyman played who played for 12 years and half dozen teams. He thought he was preparing himself for life after football by getting into the residential development game (he also invested in the financial markets). unfortunately he started at the wrong time. and was just getting his first development off of the ground about four years ago when the housing market crashed (along with his investment portfolio. he ended up losing the development and had to downsize to home 1/3 of the size and cost of his original home. Here was an athlete who tried to maximize on a high return short lived career and just got burned by bad timing. the biggest problem for athletes, is unless they have a solid profession that pays an annual salary that will continue to cover their living expenses, they are subject to rising and falling in unstable markets.

 

[Cowboy_Shawn]

Does Garrett have some off that in his DNA, only time will tell.
Can Jerry allow the buck to stop with his coach? Even if that means staying out of the spotlight?

I think that these 2 points have a lot to do with changing the culture at Valley Ranch, I have more faith in the first point than I have in the second.

This is the main issue, IMO. Jerry has absolutely coddled his players and undermined his head coaches' authority over the years.

It's impossible for a coach to put his own stamp on the team when the owner insists on being as involved as Jerry has been.

 

[TwoDeep3]

I am listening to Cowboys Break. Josh Ellis, Nick Eatman, and Derek Eagleton.

Josh Ellis brought up a conversation Albert Breer had with Stephen Jones about entitlement. He is talking at first about Mike Jenkins and how he has no leverage. He has only had one end to end great year, coming off shoulder surgery, and we've had an off season where we added depth and Jenkins thinks he can dictate terms.

He then compares him to following in the footsteps of Greg Ellis, Patrick Crayton, and mentions TO as someone who felt like he was entitled.

Now, this is to set up what I thought was an enlightening quote Breer used from none other than Bill Parcells.

Playing in Dallas "on the main stage. Players can be microwaved into stars, and if they're not careful can inherit a company sense of entitlement."


I don't know about anyone else but I think that statement is so astute as to part of the problem that has existed in Dallas and is what Garrett is looking to erase by his right kinds of guys approach.

Jimmy was someone the players feared. He could take a player who had a sense of entitlement and make him a team first kind of guy because he commanded fear. Jimmy had an aura about him that few coaches have. I think Jimmy was the closest thing to Lombardi as far as someone the players feared as I have ever seen.

I do not see Garrett as someone the players fear. I do see him as someone they respect because of his passion for the game. In that respect he is more like a Landry, but players did fear Landry too.

But Garrett needs guys to buy into the systems and to do that he can't have entitlement in the town where as Parcells noted "the main stage" it can happen so fast. I like that metaphor of microwaved.

To this end I see his staff as probably one of the critical elements of his ultimate success or failure here. The more respect the players have for the coordinators and position coaches the more they will fall in line.

We are seeing a team first crew evolving. I don't think there is any denying that. We still have 2 or 3 superstar players, maybe a few more. The big difference that can happen with this team will be ultimately how many of them don't feel the microwave giving them star status and who keep team first.

I really like that comment by Parcells. I like it a lot.

When the player can circumvent the head coach to go directly to the owner, then that entitlement is bound to happen.

When Jerry Jones speaks about football coaching decisions in we terms, that is bound to happen.

The biggest advantage Jerry could put himself in is to fire himself as GM. That way when players come to pal around and try and get Daddy to overrule Mommy, then Jerry would refer them back to the GM or head coach.

You cannot be friends with your employees and expect to gain their respect.

You cannot castrate the head coach by being the owner and GM and allowing players access to a higher authority without creating two masters.

A house with two masters is divided.

This is ignored sometimes.

The results underscore the foolishness of the decision position to yourself to be considered a "football guy."

 

[Hostile]

When the player can circumvent the head coach to go directly to the owner, then that entitlement is bound to happen.

When Jerry Jones speaks about football coaching decisions in we terms, that is bound to happen.

The biggest advantage Jerry could put himself in is to fire himself as GM. That way when players come to pal around and try and get Daddy to overrule Mommy, then Jerry would refer them back to the GM or head coach.

You cannot be friends with your employees and expect to gain their respect.

You cannot castrate the head coach by being the owner and GM and allowing players access to a higher authority without creating two masters.

A house with two masters is divided.

This is ignored sometimes.

The results underscore the foolishness of the decision position to yourself to be considered a "football guy."

So you are saying the Steelers feel entitled since Ruthlessraper wanted to talk directly to Rooney II about Arians.

The Patriots were really entitled given the close relationship they all had with Robert Kraft's widow.

The Eagles too given Lurie's wife met Vick and signed off on their acquiring him.

In fact, I bet more teams and players have access between players and owners than our fans would like to admit.