ESPN: a tale of two sanders

joseephuss

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http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=paolantonio_sal&id=3055421

Barry failed in big games; Deion flourished
Paolantonio

By Sal Paolantonio
ESPN


Updated: October 9, 2007

In his new book, "The Paolantonio Report: The Most Overrated and Underrated Players, Teams, Coaches & Moments in NFL History," Sal Paolantonio challenges some of your long-held beliefs about America's popular game.

"The Paolantonio Report"
Sao Paolantonio talks about some of his more controversial assertions, including his listing of Joe Namath, Larry Csonka and Lynn Swann as overrated.

• Sao Pal on QBs, RBs Insider
• Sao Pal on WRs, teams Insider

Here's what we think about Johnny Unitas: With one magical stroke in 1958, he changed the game of pro football forever. Each year, it seems, a new book mythologizes his status as a cultural icon. In short, he gets the John Lennon treatment. Bart Starr? He gets treated like Ringo -- not Jim Ringo, the great Green Bay Packers center, but Ringo Starr, the Beatles drummer who always seems to be overlooked and undervalued.

Starr has been dismissed as the caretaker of great Packers teams. Not so. Take a second look by comparing him to Unitas, who posted a career playoff passer rating of 68.9 with seven touchdown passes and 10 interceptions. Starr? He had a career playoff passer rating 104.8, the highest in NFL history, safely ahead of the next best guy, Joe Montana (95.6).

Starr threw just three interceptions in 213 career postseason attempts. And get this: When Tom Brady threw four picks during the playoffs last year, Starr reclaimed the career record for fewest interceptions per pass attempt in NFL postseason history.

Starr -- who won more championships than Unitas, Steve Young, Dan Marino and (thus far) Brett Favre combined -- is the most underrated quarterback in NFL history.

That's what "The Paolantonio Report: the Most Overrated and Underrated Players, Teams, Coaches & Moments in NFL History" is all about. It provides a fresh perspective. It's an attempt to set the record straight -- or at least provide plenty to debate.

Bart Starr

Malcolm Emmons/US Presswire

Packers great Bart Starr was an efficient and accurate passer, especially in big games.
So much of what we know about pro football has been catapulted through the star-maker machinery, achieving mythical status -- undeservedly so. Take the 1985 Chicago Bears. A great, great team. But shouldn't we hoist the 1976 Oakland Raiders on the same pedestal?

Both teams lost only one regular-season game. But, to get their Lombardi Trophy, the Raiders had to beat teams for the ages with Hall of Fame quarterbacks -- first Terry Bradshaw and the Steel Curtain, then Fran Tarkenton and the Purple People Eaters. The Bears? They beat the Rams with Dieter Brock at the helm, then the Patriots with Steve Grogan at quarterback.

If it's not being overhyped, so much of the NFL is now being processed through the meat grinder of our current national obsession, fantasy football. So, while it contains plenty of statistical analysis, this book consciously avoids a slavish obedience to numbers and trends, instead considering the historical impact of the team, coach or player.

For example, the drafting of Bob Hayes is one of the most underrated moments in NFL history. His speed changed the game forever. You can't write a history of the league without Bullet Bob. Yet he's not in Canton. That should be corrected.

So, here's a snapshot of the book. Two guys named Sanders, two huge stars -- one overrated, one underrated. Let the debate begin.

Barry Sanders -- Overrated

Barry Sanders, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2004 (his first year of eligibility), scored one touchdown for every 35 touches in his 153 regular-season games, but just one touchdown in 112 postseason touches in six playoff games.

Indeed, Sanders' only career playoff touchdown was a 47-yard run against the Dallas Cowboys in a 1991 divisional-round playoff game in the Pontiac Silverdome. The Lions won that game 38-6. Sanders' touchdown came in the final minutes of the fourth quarter with Detroit already leading 31-6. The following week, the Lions went on the road to play the Washington Commanders at RFK Stadium. Sanders was not a factor. Detroit took a 41-10 beating.

Barry Sanders

US Presswire

Barry Sanders wasn't the same player away from home.
Sanders' postseason performance supports the notion that he was a product of the cozy, climate-controlled Silverdome. Nice carpet for easy, stop-on-a-dime maneuvering. Seventy-two degrees. Detroit faithful keeping the defensive line off balance with high decibel support.

In four career outdoor postseason games, Sanders averaged a paltry 2.8 yards per carry. He never scored a touchdown. And he never ran for more than 65 yards in a single game. With Sanders, the Lions went 0-4 in outdoor playoff games, losing by an average of 17 points.

Nobody is suggesting that a bust of Barry should not be in Canton. He's the third-leading rusher of all time with 15,269 yards. He holds the all-time NFL record for consecutive 1,000 seasons with 10, from 1989 to 1998. Sanders was the first player to rush for 1,500 yards in a season five times. He was selected to 10 Pro Bowls. In 1997, when he rushed for 2,053 yards, he was NFL co-MVP, an honor he should have not had to share with Brett Favre that season. In 1988, Sanders won the Heisman Trophy at Oklahoma State.

But this picture of perfection has a nasty blemish. Once Sanders got to the big stage, and got out of the Silverdome, he was a bust.

Take the wild-card playoff game at Lambeau Field in 1994. That season, Sanders averaged 5.7 yards per carry -- the second-highest total of his career. In the first round of the playoffs against the Green Bay Packers, on Lambeau Field's frozen tundra, Sanders set an NFL postseason record for rushing futility. He had 13 carries for minus-one yard. He had four catches that day -- for four yards. Which means he had 16 touches for a total of three yards -- 2.7 yards less than he averaged per rush in the regular season.

Now, the spirited defense of putting him in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot always includes the theory that Sanders was the only thing the Lions had going for them in The Barry Sanders Era. That's exactly what it is -- a theory, and a bad one at that.

Did we forget about wide receivers Herman Moore and Brett Perriman? The Lions stretched the field for Sanders -- especially in the Dome. This helped him be wildly successful -- in the regular season. And in the years when the Lions went to the playoffs, their defense was not awful. It was middle of the pack -- ranked 11th in 1991, 15th in 1993, 19th in 1994, 14th in 1995 and 10th in 1997.

There is another ugly scar on Sanders' career: His Greta Garbo act on the way out the door.

After rushing for 1,491 yards in 1998, Sanders abruptly and mysteriously retired. At the time, he was 1,457 yards shy of Walter Payton's all-time rushing record. His defenders say Sanders -- who played the game with dignity and class -- did not owe anybody anything. As long as he was at peace with the decision, that was enough. That's bunk.

Here was a man who benefited greatly from the support of his teammates, his organization and his fans -- and he just turned his back on them without a word of gratitude. He left his teammates and a franchise in the lurch, to the point that the Lions demanded he return $7.3 million of his signing bonus.

Years later, when it was time for him to become eligible for Canton, Sanders had to be coaxed into providing some kind of explanation for his untimely retirement.

It was too little, too late.

Postscript: Of the five leading rushers in NFL history, Sanders is the only one to never reach a Super Bowl. The others -- Emmitt Smith, Walter Payton, Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis -- all reached at least one Super Bowl. And all but Martin won at least one NFL championship ring.

Deion Sanders -- Underrated

You hear it all the time: Deion Sanders wasn't a great cornerback because he never tackled anybody. That's like saying Dan Marino wasn't a great quarterback because he couldn't run.

Sanders was the best cover corner in NFL history. Who cares how many tackles he made? The game is about making explosive plays and preventing them. Sanders did both.

Deion Sanders

Matthew Emmons/US Presswire

Deion Sanders was a nightmare for opposing offenses.
With his astonishing makeup speed, remarkable instincts, and knack for reading quarterbacks, Sanders routinely blotted out the best receiver on the other side of the line of scrimmage.

And once he got the football in his hands, Sanders became a magician. Think Devin Hester skateboarding on the Millennium Falcon. Sanders was better than any defensive back in NFL history at transforming himself into an offensive weapon and going the other way with the football.

"There's two kinds of corners in the NFL," Bengals receiver Chad Johnson said. "Regular corners play not to get beat. Deion Sanders played the game to make a play."

The problem with Sanders is that there was always so much going on with him, it tended to overshadow his performance on the football field. He was "Prime Time" in M.C. Hammer's world. He recorded a rap album with song titles like "House of Prime," "Time for Prime," "Prime Time Keeps on Ticking," "Must Be the Money" and "Y U NV Me?"

Sanders hosted "Saturday Night Live." He appeared in commercials for Nike, Burger King, Visa and Pizza Hut. For a while there, he was everywhere, and the focus drifted away from Deion Sanders the cornerback to Neon Deion.

The image -- the designer suits, the controversial interviews, the celebrity appearances -- all served to distract people from his astonishing ability. And don't let that unparalleled speed and athleticism fool you. Sanders was a true student of the game. His film study and preparation were legendary. Most times, he knew the wide receivers better than their own quarterbacks. He had a catalogue of tics and tells on every guy he faced.

This rare combination of preparation and physical skill made him the greatest shut-down cornerback -- ever.

Even though opposing quarterbacks tried to throw nowhere near Sanders, he still finished his career with 53 interceptions in 173 NFL games, or one every 3.3 games.

And once the ball was in his hands, Sanders truly became Prime Time. His 1,331 career return yards are the second-most in NFL history, as are his nine touchdown returns. His average of 25.1 yards per interception return is an NFL record.

And true to his nickname, he really was a prime-time player. He's one of only five cornerbacks in NFL history to win Super Bowls for two different teams, the 49ers in 1994 and the Cowboys in 1995. He had an interception in the 49ers' Super Bowl win over the Chargers, and he shares the NFL postseason record with at least one interception in three consecutive games.

Sanders was such a skilled cornerback that when he came out of retirement with the Ravens in 2004 -- four years after he last played a game -- he had three interceptions in nine games playing almost exclusively in nickel situations, then two in '05 at age 38.

Postscript: Don't forge about his Major League Baseball career. Sanders hit .263 in nine seasons and had a .533 average for the Braves in their 1992 World Series loss to the Blue Jays.

Sal Paolantonio covers the NFL for ESPN. "The Paolantonio Report: the Most Overrated and Underrated Players, Teams, Coaches & Moments in NFL History" can be found on Amazon.com or at local bookstores.
 

theebs

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why would anyone give two turds what sal Palantonio thinks.

He is ridiculously bad.
 

joseephuss

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theebs;1699185 said:
why would anyone give two turds what sal Palantonio thinks.

He is ridiculously bad.

He did say that Bob Hayes was underrated, changed the game and should be in the HoF. I figured everyone would like that part.
 

superpunk

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Wow do I ever agree with that entire article. Barry might be the most overrated player in history, along with possibly Joe Namath (I can't say for sure). It's nice to see it in print. Good blurb about Bob Hayes, too.
 

kevwun

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It's nice that he wrote a football version of the baseball book Jayson Stark just wrote. I wonder which espn writer will write a book about overrated and underrated NBA players?
 

FCBarca

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Sal is an idiot...Slamming Barry Sanders?...Crazy talk...Way to gloss over the fact that Ford's Lions never built much of a team around Sanders and that he did it largely without a line like Emmitt had...Moreover, when it did come to playoff time where teams get stingier on defense what do you think the opposition would do?...Load the box and kill the run...Talk about desparate for material in order to annoint Deion and having to reach to spurn Barry.

Idiot
 

dogunwo

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theebs;1699185 said:
why would anyone give two turds what sal Palantonio thinks.

He is ridiculously bad.
I think he is spot on actually. Especially about the Deion Sanders part. It seems that people forget just how dominant he was. It wasn't until very late in his career when teams starting having some success against Deion, and it was minimal success at that.
 

adamknite

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FCBarca;1699221 said:
Sal is an idiot...Slamming Barry Sanders?...Crazy talk...Way to gloss over the fact that Ford's Lions never built much of a team around Sanders and that he did it largely without a line like Emmitt had...Moreover, when it did come to playoff time where teams get stingier on defense what do you think the opposition would do?...Load the box and kill the run...Talk about desparate for material in order to annoint Deion and having to reach to spurn Barry.

Idiot

Try reading before responding....


Now, the spirited defense of putting him in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot always includes the theory that Sanders was the only thing the Lions had going for them in The Barry Sanders Era. That's exactly what it is -- a theory, and a bad one at that.

Did we forget about wide receivers Herman Moore and Brett Perriman? The Lions stretched the field for Sanders -- especially in the Dome. This helped him be wildly successful -- in the regular season. And in the years when the Lions went to the playoffs, their defense was not awful. It was middle of the pack -- ranked 11th in 1991, 15th in 1993, 19th in 1994, 14th in 1995 and 10th in 1997.
 

FCBarca

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adamknite;1699226 said:
Try reading before responding....


Actually, I did read the post in it's entirety...and there's a difference between reading something and actually understanding it, perhaps you didn't understand it.

It's a poor argument on Sal's part to suggest somehow that Barry benefitted from the Lions' system rather than Moore and Perriman the other way around...Teams had to focus on Barry and load the box and Barry would still find a way to get through...As a result, receivers like Moore, Perriman, Farr etc benefitted...It was the other way around...Nevermind that guys like Moore were often injured or that they would disappear in big games or the QB carousel in the Motor City.

Anyone who understands the game can't look at what Sanders did and could do and think it was the product of a system or the benefit of some OL (How many pro bowl o-lineman did they have?)...Barry made his own plays
 

adamknite

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FCBarca;1699221 said:
Sal is an idiot...Slamming Barry Sanders?...Crazy talk...Way to gloss over the fact that Ford's Lions never built much of a team around Sanders and that he did it largely without a line like Emmitt had...Moreover, when it did come to playoff time where teams get stingier on defense what do you think the opposition would do?...Load the box and kill the run...Talk about desparate for material in order to annoint Deion and having to reach to spurn Barry.

Idiot

FCBarca;1699236 said:
Actually, I did read the post in it's entirety...and there's a difference between reading something and actually understanding it, perhaps you didn't understand it.

It's a poor argument on Sal's part to suggest somehow that Barry benefitted from the Lions' system rather than Moore and Perriman the other way around...Teams had to focus on Barry and load the box and Barry would still find a way to get through...As a result, receivers like Moore, Perriman, Farr etc benefitted...It was the other way around...Nevermind that guys like Moore were often injured or that they would disappear in big games or the QB carousel in the Motor City.

Anyone who understands the game can't look at what Sanders did and could do and think it was the product of a system or the benefit of some OL (How many pro bowl o-lineman did they have?)...Barry made his own plays

You said he glossed over the fact Barry didn't have a team around him, when Sao clearly went into detail how they had a decent defence and two very good wide recievers, and Barry had a couple of pro bowl linemen on his team.

Linemen:
1997 Kevin Glover - det

1996 Kevin Glover - det

1995 Kevin Glover - det
1995 Lomas Brown - det

1994 Lomas Brown - det

1993 Lomas Brown - det

1992 Lomas Brown - det

1991 Lomas Brown - det

other players:
1997 Herman Moore - det

1996 Herman Moore - det

1995 Herman Moore - det

1994 Herman Moore - det
1994 Chris Spielman - det

1993 Pat Swilling - det

1991 Jerry Ball - det
1991 Chris Spielman - det
1991 Bennie Blades - det
 

Chocolate Lab

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superpunk;1699195 said:
Wow do I ever agree with that entire article. Barry might be the most overrated player in history
Now you've really made me mad, Commanders fan. :mad:
 

EMMITTnROY

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superpunk;1699195 said:
Wow do I ever agree with that entire article. Barry might be the most overrated player in history, along with possibly Joe Namath (I can't say for sure). It's nice to see it in print. Good blurb about Bob Hayes, too.
agreed. i've said it over and over again and nobody ever listens. fans all across the country talk about him like he was the greatest runningback ever. but that's just because all they ever saw were the Sportscenter highlights. they never watched entire games where he would run behind the line of scrimmage and lose yardage half the time. was the man extremely talented and did he have some incredible highlight reel runs? yes. but i agree with everything this articles says, plus he doesn't even mention the fact that Sanders is the all-time leader in negative yards rushing. and it also doesn't mention the fact that the Lions' coaches would always take him out of the game in short yardage and goalline situations in favor of a scrub or a fullback.

and i'm so glad that someone finally brought up this whole "he was the whole team! he had no o-line!" crap.. what a bunch of hogwash.. 2 of his 5 o-lineman were perennial Pro Bowlers.. he had a great WR playing with him.. the team ran the Run N Shoot so people were spread out and couldn't load up in the box..

you can't be the all-time greatest and lead the NFL in all-time yardage lost, be yanked in favor of a backup in short yardage situations cause you won't hit a hole, come up completely empty in the postseason, and not to mention things like leadership, blocking, toughness, being a winner and on and on.. Emmitt and Payton over Sanders every day of the week..
 

adamknite

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EMMITTnROY;1699293 said:
agreed. i've said it over and over again and nobody ever listens. fans all across the country talk about him like he was the greatest runningback ever. but that's just because all they ever saw were the Sportscenter highlights. they never watched entire games where he would run behind the line of scrimmage and lose yardage half the time. was the man extremely talented and did he have some incredible highlight reel runs? yes. but i agree with everything this articles says, plus he doesn't even mention the fact that Sanders is the all-time leader in negative yards rushing. and it also doesn't mention the fact that the Lions' coaches would always take him out of the game in short yardage and goalline situations in favor of a scrub or a fullback.

and i'm so glad that someone finally brought up this whole "he was the whole team! he had no o-line!" crap.. what a bunch of hogwash.. 2 of his 5 o-lineman were perennial Pro Bowlers.. he had a great WR playing with him.. the team ran the Run N Shoot so people were spread out and couldn't load up in the box..

you can't be the all-time greatest and lead the NFL in all-time yardage lost, be yanked in favor of a backup in short yardage situations cause you won't hit a hole, come up completely empty in the postseason, and not to mention things like leadership, blocking, toughness, being a winner and on and on.. Emmitt and Payton over Sanders every day of the week..

Are you trying to tell me there is more to football then getting on the sportscenter highlight reel? Quit with this thinking for yourself nonsense and start believing everything that ESPN horse feeds you.
 

Chocolate Lab

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LOL.

Someone want to explain to me how you can run for over 15,000 yards by only dancing behind the line and losing yards?

The fact is, if Barry hadn't retired at the very young age of 30, he would be the all-time rushing leader. He's only 3,000 yards behind Emmitt, and he was totally healthy when he retired. That's not a guy who only makes ESPN highlight runs.

I think Reggie Bush is the guy you were thinking of. ;)
 

EMMITTnROY

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Chocolate Lab;1699321 said:
LOL.

Someone want to explain to me how you can run for over 15,000 yards by only dancing behind the line and losing yards?

The fact is, if Barry hadn't retired at the very young age of 30, he would be the all-time rushing leader. He's only 3,000 yards behind Emmitt, and he was totally healthy when he retired. That's not a guy who only makes ESPN highlight runs.

I think Reggie Bush is the guy you were thinking of. ;)
I never said that's all he did, dancing behind the line.. he was a very good back.. and he got a lot of yards, but most of his yardage were from popping big runs.. he was a home-run hitter, but he wasn't a base hitter.. it was hard for the Lions to sustain drives when he lost yardage a good percentage of the time.. he was a great back indeed, one of the best of all-time.. but you're blind to say that he didn't have a lot of flaws in his game and that he is the greatest ever.. that's why he is so severely overrated- fans everywhere think he's the greatest ever.. if you don't believe me, check out any online polls on the subject or go to any NFL message board.. he's a great back, one of the greatest ever.. but not the greatest ever.. to me, you can make an argument for Emmitt, Payton and Jim Brown as the greatest.. after those 3, there is a large gap and then Barry Sanders..

ps: oh, and Reggie Bush is a whole other matter.. don't get me started on him.. :D
 

Skin

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Chocolate Lab;1699321 said:
LOL.

Someone want to explain to me how you can run for over 15,000 yards by only dancing behind the line and losing yards?

The fact is, if Barry hadn't retired at the very young age of 30, he would be the all-time rushing leader. He's only 3,000 yards behind Emmitt, and he was totally healthy when he retired. That's not a guy who only makes ESPN highlight runs.

I think Reggie Bush is the guy you were thinking of. ;)

The thing I remember most about Barry is how they always pulled him out of the game in goal line situations and gave the ball to a bigger back.

I don't think Barry is extremely over-rated, but I also don't think he was a god. He had some freakish runs and nice seasons, but he also lead the league several times in runs for negative yardage, if I recall correctly.
 

superpunk

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Chocolate Lab;1699321 said:
LOL.

Someone want to explain to me how you can run for over 15,000 yards by only dancing behind the line and losing yards?

The fact is, if Barry hadn't retired at the very young age of 30, he would be the all-time rushing leader. He's only 3,000 yards behind Emmitt, and he was totally healthy when he retired. That's not a guy who only makes ESPN highlight runs.

I think Reggie Bush is the guy you were thinking of. ;)

He is the all-time leader in lost yardage, or tackles behind the LOS, I forget which.

That hurts your team so much, and in my estimation, was the single BIGGEST reason those Lions teams were never perceived as very good. You had to sit through four 3-and-outs when Barry put you in 3rd and 13 before you'd get one of his signature runs for a 56 yard TD - how is it possible for any team to establish an offensive rhythm dealing with that?

People want to talk about how much Barry Sanders' team hurt his chances for winning. Not so - Barry Sanders hurt his team's chances of winning.

It's not a popular opinion, but I believe it is correct.
 

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adamknite;1699269 said:
You said he glossed over the fact Barry didn't have a team around him, when Sao clearly went into detail how they had a decent defence and two very good wide recievers, and Barry had a couple of pro bowl linemen on his team.

1997 Kevin Glover - det

1996 Kevin Glover - det

1995 Kevin Glover - det
1995 Lomas Brown - det

1994 Lomas Brown - det

1993 Lomas Brown - det

1992 Lomas Brown - det

1991 Lomas Brown - det


One pro bowler on a line?...How many did Emmitt have at any one time?...How many Pro Bowlers did Emmitt have on the flanks and at QB?...Gimme a break, it's a nonsensical debate....And Glover was a defensive lineman, not OLine.

Moreover, listing Herman and Perriman as weapons is nonsense...Moore had star potential, for sure...But he was either injured or disappeared himself in big games...And as I pointed out before, Barry didn't benefit from them, they benefitted from him despite Sal suggesting otherwise....Case in point, who maintained consistency?...Barry.

1989...Barry ran all over the NFL, his QB?...Bob Gagliano with a passer rating of 61.2...No playoffs

1990...Barry still over 5 yards per carry and QB?...Bob Gagliano and Rodney Peete with a passer rating of mid 70s...Out passed by opponents but not outrushed....No playoffs

1991...Same Barry but now at QB?...Erik Kramer at passer rating of 71...Emergency of Perriman but no saviour for a passing attack still below the opposition (But not in rushing)....Playoff with a blowout over Dallas but losing in NFC championship game to Washington...Barry averaged 5 yards per carry but the focus was on the passing attack with Kramer.

1992...Same Barry but now Kramer and Peete battling at QB with 75-80 passer rating...Emergency of Moore and Perriman with better passing but still outpassed by opposition....No playoffs

1993...Surprise, same Barry...Lions outrush their opponents but still outpassed...Kramer takes the lead at QB over Peete and Moore still productive...First post season game was a loss...Barry?...Over 160 yards....Moore?...20 yards.

1994...Pattern alert, Barry the same...Barry has one of his best seasons with nearly 1900 yards...Lions outrush opponents but opponents outpass them...QB rotisserie continues as Dave Krieg and Scott Mitchell battle it out with varying success...Moore and Perriman have good seasons...One playoff game, loss...Frozen tundra of Green Bay, 16-12...Barry did not even make positive yardage against a stout Green Bay defense...Krieg's passing attack didn't fare much better but Shurmer's philosophy was to kill the run, it worked.

1995...Another great season from Barry and for once a balanced attack on offense with a passing game...Vascillated QBs from Mitchell to Majkowski...Moore and Perriman had excellent seasons as well...Playoff loss to Philly in Philly...Barry only ran the ball 10 times, 40 yards...Passing attack figured largely by the Lions and they got mopped up by Philly with 6 INTs...Philly ran up the score and Lions abandoned the run...Defense didn't do squat for Detroit.

1996...Another great season from Barry and still a balanced offensive attack with the passing game...Problem is they still had the rotation of mediocre QBs in Mitchell and the Majk man 67-75 passer ratings between the two of them)...Moore and Perrimnan had good seasons and newcomer Jonnie Morton did too...Defense helped them to a 5-11 record...No playoffs

1997...Barry breaks 2000 yard mark...Scott Mitchell leads a potent passing attack as well, despite 79 passer rating...Moore and Morton both have good years...Playoff loss to Tampa and their tough D, 20-10...Barry with 65 yards, Mitchell with passer rating of 31 and Moore with 44 yards

1998...Barry another good season...QB?...Charlie Batch enters the carousel...Moore and Morton both have good seasons...No playoffs.

1999...Barry retires...QB carousel, issues with Coach Ross and losing finally took it's toll...Lead QB that season?...Gus Frerotte.


By my count, that shows that Barry was incredibly consistent throughout his career...A career that saw him see success in the passing game only sparingly and saw a QB carousel that had 10 different QBs during his career.
 

EMMITTnROY

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FCBarca;1699378 said:
One pro bowler on a line?...How many did Emmitt have at any one time?...How many Pro Bowlers did Emmitt have on the flanks and at QB?...Gimme a break, it's a nonsensical debate....And Glover was a defensive lineman, not OLine.

Moreover, listing Herman and Perriman as weapons is nonsense...Moore had star potential, for sure...But he was either injured or disappeared himself in big games...And as I pointed out before, Barry didn't benefit from them, they benefitted from him despite Sal suggesting otherwise....Case in point, who maintained consistency?...Barry.

1989...Barry ran all over the NFL, his QB?...Bob Gagliano with a passer rating of 61.2...No playoffs

1990...Barry still over 5 yards per carry and QB?...Bob Gagliano and Rodney Peete with a passer rating of mid 70s...Out passed by opponents but not outrushed....No playoffs

1991...Same Barry but now at QB?...Erik Kramer at passer rating of 71...Emergency of Perriman but no saviour for a passing attack still below the opposition (But not in rushing)....Playoff with a blowout over Dallas but losing in NFC championship game to Washington...Barry averaged 5 yards per carry but the focus was on the passing attack with Kramer.

1992...Same Barry but now Kramer and Peete battling at QB with 75-80 passer rating...Emergency of Moore and Perriman with better passing but still outpassed by opposition....No playoffs

1993...Surprise, same Barry...Lions outrush their opponents but still outpassed...Kramer takes the lead at QB over Peete and Moore still productive...First post season game was a loss...Barry?...Over 160 yards....Moore?...20 yards.

1994...Pattern alert, Barry the same...Barry has one of his best seasons with nearly 1900 yards...Lions outrush opponents but opponents outpass them...QB rotisserie continues as Dave Krieg and Scott Mitchell battle it out with varying success...Moore and Perriman have good seasons...One playoff game, loss...Frozen tundra of Green Bay, 16-12...Barry did not even make positive yardage against a stout Green Bay defense...Krieg's passing attack didn't fare much better but Shurmer's philosophy was to kill the run, it worked.

1995...Another great season from Barry and for once a balanced attack on offense with a passing game...Vascillated QBs from Mitchell to Majkowski...Moore and Perriman had excellent seasons as well...Playoff loss to Philly in Philly...Barry only ran the ball 10 times, 40 yards...Passing attack figured largely by the Lions and they got mopped up by Philly with 6 INTs...Philly ran up the score and Lions abandoned the run...Defense didn't do squat for Detroit.

1996...Another great season from Barry and still a balanced offensive attack with the passing game...Problem is they still had the rotation of mediocre QBs in Mitchell and the Majk man 67-75 passer ratings between the two of them)...Moore and Perrimnan had good seasons and newcomer Jonnie Morton did too...Defense helped them to a 5-11 record...No playoffs

1997...Barry breaks 2000 yard mark...Scott Mitchell leads a potent passing attack as well, despite 79 passer rating...Moore and Morton both have good years...Playoff loss to Tampa and their tough D, 20-10...Barry with 65 yards, Mitchell with passer rating of 31 and Moore with 44 yards

1998...Barry another good season...QB?...Charlie Batch enters the carousel...Moore and Morton both have good seasons...No playoffs.

1999...Barry retires...QB carousel, issues with Coach Ross and losing finally took it's toll...Lead QB that season?...Gus Frerotte.


By my count, that shows that Barry was incredibly consistent throughout his career...A career that saw him see success in the passing game only sparingly and saw a QB carousel that had 10 different QBs during his career.
Kevin Glover was an offensive lineman.. the fact that you don't know that pretty much lost your credibility within this argument for me.. I stopped reading after that sentence.. you might have cursed my mother out after that and I would not have even seen it..
 
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