ESPN: a tale of two sanders

[Chocolate Lab]

Just curious, did you guys only see him at the end of his career or something?

It's funny, at Oklahoma State when he had a decent line, he didn't dance like that at all. When he had holes, he ran right though them and only then made people miss in the secondary. Did he suddenly just decide to dance in the backfield in the pros?

Truth is, that line at Detroit was NOT good. Yes, it had a Pro Bowler or two, but overall it let people in all the time. That's the reason he was making negative yards, because people were in his backfield. He never had a line anything like what Emmitt got to run through, I guarantee you that.

And to the idea that he hurt his team... He was the whole team. There weren't any other good players on it, other than Herman Moore. Scott Mitchell? Erik Kramer? Hello?

I'm not saying he's THE greatest ever, but if anything, he's underrated. This talk about how he only broke off long runs... Um, that's the whole idea.

 

[Skin]

Just curious, did you guys only see him at the end of his career or something?

It's funny, at Oklahoma State when he had a decent line, he didn't dance like that at all. When he had holes, he ran right though them and only then made people miss in the secondary. Did he suddenly just decide to dance in the backfield in the pros?

Truth is, that line at Detroit was NOT good. Yes, it had a Pro Bowler or two, but overall it let people in all the time. That's the reason he was making negative yards, because people were in his backfield. He never had a line anything like what Emmitt got to run through, I guarantee you that.

And to the idea that he hurt his team... He was the whole team. There weren't any other good players on it, other than Herman Moore. Scott Mitchell? Erik Kramer? Hello?

I'm not saying he's THE greatest ever, but if anything, he's underrated. This talk about how he only broke off long runs... Um, that's the whole idea.

Brett Perriman was no slouch at WR (he caught 108 balls in 1995 and 94 the next year), which coincided with some huge years that Hermann Moore had. Those guys put up some offensive numbers. Their offense was not inept. I don't care if Erik Kramer or Scott Mitchell were their QBs, they were serviceable and somehow they functioned well enough to get the ball to the WRs fairly regularly.

 

[FCBarca]

Kevin Glover was an offensive lineman.. the fact that you don't know that pretty much lost your credibility within this argument for me.. I stopped reading after that sentence.. you might have cursed my mother out after that and I would not have even seen it..

They had Glover listed in a defensive category on their site, my mistake...Yet, doesn't change that there was ever only one lineman as an all pro for Barry at any one time.

And as evidenced by the 'I stopped reading after that sentence' remark, I left childish behavior in my childhood which is also why there was no word about your mother in my post, either.

Grow up and try contructing arguments that aren't reliant on fallacies...Can't construct an actual argument to support your point but point out insignificant aspects of mine to somehow negate it?

 

[adamknite]

One pro bowler on a line?...How many did Emmitt have at any one time?...How many Pro Bowlers did Emmitt have on the flanks and at QB?...Gimme a break, it's a nonsensical debate....And Glover was a defensive lineman, not OLine.

Moreover, listing Herman and Perriman as weapons is nonsense...Moore had star potential, for sure...But he was either injured or disappeared himself in big games...And as I pointed out before, Barry didn't benefit from them, they benefitted from him despite Sal suggesting otherwise....Case in point, who maintained consistency?...Barry.

1989...Barry ran all over the NFL, his QB?...Bob Gagliano with a passer rating of 61.2...No playoffs

1990...Barry still over 5 yards per carry and QB?...Bob Gagliano and Rodney Peete with a passer rating of mid 70s...Out passed by opponents but not outrushed....No playoffs

1991...Same Barry but now at QB?...Erik Kramer at passer rating of 71...Emergency of Perriman but no saviour for a passing attack still below the opposition (But not in rushing)....Playoff with a blowout over Dallas but losing in NFC championship game to Washington...Barry averaged 5 yards per carry but the focus was on the passing attack with Kramer.

1992...Same Barry but now Kramer and Peete battling at QB with 75-80 passer rating...Emergency of Moore and Perriman with better passing but still outpassed by opposition....No playoffs

1993...Surprise, same Barry...Lions outrush their opponents but still outpassed...Kramer takes the lead at QB over Peete and Moore still productive...First post season game was a loss...Barry?...Over 160 yards....Moore?...20 yards.

1994...Pattern alert, Barry the same...Barry has one of his best seasons with nearly 1900 yards...Lions outrush opponents but opponents outpass them...QB rotisserie continues as Dave Krieg and Scott Mitchell battle it out with varying success...Moore and Perriman have good seasons...One playoff game, loss...Frozen tundra of Green Bay, 16-12...Barry did not even make positive yardage against a stout Green Bay defense...Krieg's passing attack didn't fare much better but Shurmer's philosophy was to kill the run, it worked.

1995...Another great season from Barry and for once a balanced attack on offense with a passing game...Vascillated QBs from Mitchell to Majkowski...Moore and Perriman had excellent seasons as well...Playoff loss to Philly in Philly...Barry only ran the ball 10 times, 40 yards...Passing attack figured largely by the Lions and they got mopped up by Philly with 6 INTs...Philly ran up the score and Lions abandoned the run...Defense didn't do squat for Detroit.

1996...Another great season from Barry and still a balanced offensive attack with the passing game...Problem is they still had the rotation of mediocre QBs in Mitchell and the Majk man 67-75 passer ratings between the two of them)...Moore and Perrimnan had good seasons and newcomer Jonnie Morton did too...Defense helped them to a 5-11 record...No playoffs

1997...Barry breaks 2000 yard mark...Scott Mitchell leads a potent passing attack as well, despite 79 passer rating...Moore and Morton both have good years...Playoff loss to Tampa and their tough D, 20-10...Barry with 65 yards, Mitchell with passer rating of 31 and Moore with 44 yards

1998...Barry another good season...QB?...Charlie Batch enters the carousel...Moore and Morton both have good seasons...No playoffs.

1999...Barry retires...QB carousel, issues with Coach Ross and losing finally took it's toll...Lead QB that season?...Gus Frerotte.


By my count, that shows that Barry was incredibly consistent throughout his career...A career that saw him see success in the passing game only sparingly and saw a QB carousel that had 10 different QBs during his career.

I never said Barry had an all pro team around him, but you made it sound like Barry was doing everything on his own, when really he had some pretty good players around him, that made some pro bowls. Barry Sanders was good at running around until he could break some tackles and bust a long run. Emmitt was great at every aspect of playing the position of RB, most notable difference: Emmitt could block and help his team when he wasn't getting the ball.

Also here is a little fact you seemd to leave out because it hurt your case... or maybe it's because you just don't know any better, but in 1995 Moore and Perriman became the FIRST WR duo to both have 100 catches in the same season. I think that's a pretty good threat right there....

 

[cowboyeric8]

agreed. i've said it over and over again and nobody ever listens. fans all across the country talk about him like he was the greatest runningback ever. but that's just because all they ever saw were the Sportscenter highlights. they never watched entire games where he would run behind the line of scrimmage and lose yardage half the time. was the man extremely talented and did he have some incredible highlight reel runs? yes. but i agree with everything this articles says, plus he doesn't even mention the fact that Sanders is the all-time leader in negative yards rushing. and it also doesn't mention the fact that the Lions' coaches would always take him out of the game in short yardage and goalline situations in favor of a scrub or a fullback.

and i'm so glad that someone finally brought up this whole "he was the whole team! he had no o-line!" crap.. what a bunch of hogwash.. 2 of his 5 o-lineman were perennial Pro Bowlers.. he had a great WR playing with him.. the team ran the Run N Shoot so people were spread out and couldn't load up in the box..

you can't be the all-time greatest and lead the NFL in all-time yardage lost, be yanked in favor of a backup in short yardage situations cause you won't hit a hole, come up completely empty in the postseason, and not to mention things like leadership, blocking, toughness, being a winner and on and on.. Emmitt and Payton over Sanders every day of the week..

Spot on, he also couldn't block like Emmitt and Payton.

 

[adamknite]

They had Glover listed in a defensive category on their site, my mistake...Yet, doesn't change that there was ever only one lineman as an all pro for Barry at any one time.

And as evidenced by the 'I stopped reading after that sentence' remark, I left childish behavior in my childhood which is also why there was no word about your mother in my post, either.

Grow up and try contructing arguments that aren't reliant on fallacies...Can't construct an actual argument to support your point but point out insignificant aspects of mine to somehow negate it?

1995 both Glover and Brown made the pro bowl..... again..... practice reading.

in a season where he has 2 pro bowl linemen, a pro bowl WR, another WR that could have easily been voted into the probowl.... Barry still couldn't win a playoff game, and only gained 40 yards