ESPN: Vick indictment unlikely
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Ok, thanks.peplaw06;1547079 said:
In that case, the only ramifications for Vick would be yet another black eye for him and the league.
I've read that the league would like to suspend him, but if there are no charges, their hands are kinda tied.
deadrody
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For doing.... WHAT, exactly ? Owning a property that someone else used to commit a crime.burmafrd;1547100 said:
The people that CONTINUE to be obsessed with this guy really need to get some form of life. The federal government opened it's own independent investigation in this case for the SOLE purpose of going after Vick and they found nothing.
The most pathetic part of this is considering the level of sophistication involved here. Dog fighting. These are common thugs, as you guys all seem giddy to point out. And yet they were able to cover their tracks so well that they cannot find a single shred of evidence to tie Mike Vick to dog fighting. Are you KIDDING me ?
Time to move on guys.
adamknite
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deadrody;1548204 said:
Way to go. There wasn't an argument about it, but thanks to you there will probably be 12 pages of "Discussion" now. Congratulations on insulting everybody who's posted in the thread I hope it made your day better.
joseephuss
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deadrody;1548204 said:
Why do you think the sole purpose of the federal investigation was to go after Vick? That is quite an assumption on your part? How about it was just to find out who was involved and prosecute those people?
Dog fighting is not a sophisticated racket. These guys should easily be able to cover their tracks. Forget Michael Vick. It may be easy to prove dog fighting did occur, but to prove anyones involvement and the extent of that involvement is the difficult task.
Vick will not face any repercussions from the NFL. There is just nothing there.
iceberg
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anyone remember when i said vick was a blatant liar about "never spending time on that property"? well, the *source* i had has threads dating back to 2002 when he said in talking to vicks possee they ADVERTISE vick is there with his 50 dogs, staying out of trouble, playing games... - so bare minimum he's a freaking liar.
this just in:
POSTED 1:06 p.m. EDT, July 9, 2007
VICK HANDLERS USED TO BRAG ABOUT "SECLUDED" PROPERTY
A source with knowledge of certain statements made in the past by members of Mike Vick's entourage tells us that Vick's handlers used to brag that the Falcons quarterback would never get in any trouble at bars or other places where NFL players find trouble (and/or vice-versa) because Vick spends most of his time in the offseason at a secluded property in rural Virginia where, among other things, he "mess[es] around with his 50 pit bulls."
Unless Vick owned another secluded property in rural Virginia, this information further contradicts Vick's "I never go there" claim, which was made on the heels of the disclosure in late April that more than 50 dogs had been removed from his Surry County home.
It also runs contrary to the media's inexplicable softening of Vick's position from "never" to "rarely."
While we're back on the topic, we'd forgotten that pictures on Vick's now-defunct K-9 Kennels web site showed dog cages that looked a lot like the row of pens behind the Surry County property. (Thanks to the reader who reminded us of that specific wrinkle.)
As we see it, then, there are three possible explanations:
1. Vick was operating a dog breeding and dog fighting operation out of the Surry County property, and claimed that he never went there as a knee-jerk reaction to the news that the place had been raided.
2. Vick was operating a dog breeding operation out of the Surry County property, and his family members and/or friends were secretly fighting the dogs without his knowledge.
3. Vick was operating a dog breeding operation out of some other location, and his family members and/or friends independently decided to breed dogs for the purpose of fighting them in Surry County, confident that Mike Vick would never show up unannounced and inspect the contents of the land, which included three black buildings that (if Vick built them) were installed for reasons completely unrelated to dog fighting and/or breeding.
Under the scientific principle established in the Fourteenth Century by Franciscan Friar William of Ockham, the simplest explanation is usually the most accurate one. In this specific case, the fact that a man who breeds pit bulls and who owns property in rural Virginia where pit bulls are being bred (and apparently more) knows that the pit bulls are being bred (and apparently more) makes much more sense than the notion that his family members were engaged in an elaborate ruse that could have blown up at any moment if Mike popped in for a visit.
Indeed, if Vick had no knowledge of or involvement in dog fighting and merely bred pit bulls because he loves them, the family members would have been risking his wrath if he were to find out that they had transformed his passion into a pastime that results in pain, mutilation, and (often) death.
So, to anyone out there who thinks we simply have it in for Vick, we ask you to set aside your own biases and apply common sense to the objective evidence.
------
that sounds SO familiar....
i really don't care what the court finds for vick and you can call that as "wrong" as you want to. guilty people walk free all the time (hi oj!) so it's no surprise it may happen again.
but if "innocent" why lie?
this just in:
POSTED 1:06 p.m. EDT, July 9, 2007
VICK HANDLERS USED TO BRAG ABOUT "SECLUDED" PROPERTY
A source with knowledge of certain statements made in the past by members of Mike Vick's entourage tells us that Vick's handlers used to brag that the Falcons quarterback would never get in any trouble at bars or other places where NFL players find trouble (and/or vice-versa) because Vick spends most of his time in the offseason at a secluded property in rural Virginia where, among other things, he "mess[es] around with his 50 pit bulls."
Unless Vick owned another secluded property in rural Virginia, this information further contradicts Vick's "I never go there" claim, which was made on the heels of the disclosure in late April that more than 50 dogs had been removed from his Surry County home.
It also runs contrary to the media's inexplicable softening of Vick's position from "never" to "rarely."
While we're back on the topic, we'd forgotten that pictures on Vick's now-defunct K-9 Kennels web site showed dog cages that looked a lot like the row of pens behind the Surry County property. (Thanks to the reader who reminded us of that specific wrinkle.)
As we see it, then, there are three possible explanations:
1. Vick was operating a dog breeding and dog fighting operation out of the Surry County property, and claimed that he never went there as a knee-jerk reaction to the news that the place had been raided.
2. Vick was operating a dog breeding operation out of the Surry County property, and his family members and/or friends were secretly fighting the dogs without his knowledge.
3. Vick was operating a dog breeding operation out of some other location, and his family members and/or friends independently decided to breed dogs for the purpose of fighting them in Surry County, confident that Mike Vick would never show up unannounced and inspect the contents of the land, which included three black buildings that (if Vick built them) were installed for reasons completely unrelated to dog fighting and/or breeding.
Under the scientific principle established in the Fourteenth Century by Franciscan Friar William of Ockham, the simplest explanation is usually the most accurate one. In this specific case, the fact that a man who breeds pit bulls and who owns property in rural Virginia where pit bulls are being bred (and apparently more) knows that the pit bulls are being bred (and apparently more) makes much more sense than the notion that his family members were engaged in an elaborate ruse that could have blown up at any moment if Mike popped in for a visit.
Indeed, if Vick had no knowledge of or involvement in dog fighting and merely bred pit bulls because he loves them, the family members would have been risking his wrath if he were to find out that they had transformed his passion into a pastime that results in pain, mutilation, and (often) death.
So, to anyone out there who thinks we simply have it in for Vick, we ask you to set aside your own biases and apply common sense to the objective evidence.
------
that sounds SO familiar....
i really don't care what the court finds for vick and you can call that as "wrong" as you want to. guilty people walk free all the time (hi oj!) so it's no surprise it may happen again.
but if "innocent" why lie?
AbeBeta
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Interesting stuff from PFT on the complaint -- the most interesting point they make is that nobody's names are mentioned in the complaint -- it isn't that Vick wasn't mention. The complaint is against the kennel. So it doesn't seem at all that Vick is even remotely out fo the woods.
SELECTED PASSAGES FROM THE VICK COMPLAINT
A copy of the federal complaint regarding the dog-fighting investigation at the Surry County, Virginia property owned by Falcons quarterback Mike Vick has been available for a few days, yet we haven't seen anyone weave many of the key passages from it into media reports regarding the issue.
We mention this because we received an e-mail from a member of the national media this morning who described some of the details as "frightening."
So here are some selected quotes from the document, which was filed by the feds in an effort to secure possession of the 54 dogs seized from the Vick property in April 2007.
Paragraph 9 of the document confirms that "[m]any of the [54] pit bulldogs recovered or observed in the search had scars and injuries consistent with injuries sustained in dog fighting." (Previously, there was a dispute -- fueled in part by Surry County prosecutor Gerald Poindexter -- regarding whether the dogs taken from the land were scarred or injured.)
Paragraph 10 lists the additional items recovered and observed in the initial search in April: "a blood-stained fighting area; animal training and breeding equipment, including a 'rape stand,' a 'break' or 'parting' stick, treadmills and 'slat mills;' assorted paperwork documenting involvement in animal fighting ventures; and performance enhancing pharmaceuticals commonly used to increase fighting potential in dogs trained for fighting, as well as to keep injured dogs fighting longer." We highlighted the reference to paperwork documenting involvement in animal fighting ventures because we hadn't previously seen this aspect of the seized property reported anywhere.
Paragraph 11 says that members and associates of "Bad Newz Kennels," which was operated out of the Vick property, sponsored and exhibited pit bull fights at the Vick property and in Blackstone, Virginia, in North Carolina, South Carolina, Maryland, New Jersey, and in other states.
Paragraph 12 says that dog fights have been sponsored on Vick's property since 2002, with dogs from South Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, New York, Texas, and other states engaged in the "competition."
Paragraph 13 contains some of the details regarding the pre-fight preparations. "The two dogs participating in a particular fight had to be the same weight and sex. Before a fight would start, the participants would weigh and bathe the dogs. The fighting weight would be established before the fight, requiring the opponent dogs to measure within approximately one-half pound of the set weight. . . . The opposing dogs were washed before a fight to remove any poison or narcotic placed on the dog's coat -- if the opposing dog would bite the 'tainted' dog that was coated with poison or narcotic, this would affect the opposing dog's performance during the fight. The participants would sometimes stop feeding the fighting dog before the scheduled fights, in order to make it hungry for the other dog."
Paragraph 14 explains that the fights at the Vick property "generally occurred late at night or early in the morning, sometimes involving 2-3 separate matches, and would last several hours." The persons in attendance were "[g]enerally" limited to persons accompanying Bad Newz Kennels members and persons accompanying the members of opposing kennels. "For a particular dog fight, the opponents would establish a purse for the winning side, ranging from 100's up to 1,000's of dollars. Participants and spectators would also place side-bets on the fight, dependant on the ultimate outcome or certain events occurring during the course of the dog fight."
Paragraph 14 also contains some grisly details regarding the aftermath of the eventws. "The dog fight would last to the end, which would generally involve the death or surrender of the losing dog. At the end of the fight, the losing dog was sometimes put to death by drowning, strangulation, hanging, gun shot, electrocution, or some other method. The members of 'Bad Newz Kennels' would sometimes 'test' the pit bulls in their inventory, determining if a particular dog was 'game,' meaning that it would be a good fighter. Sometimes, the dogs deemed not to be good fighters would be put to death."
Though the media was quick to point out that Mike Vick's name appears nowhere in the complaint, no names are mentioned. Instead, the complaint refers in several places to the "members of 'Bad Newz Kennels,'" without identifying any of said members.
But we saw at least one hint in the complaint that suggests to us a belief by the feds that Vick is one of the members of Bad Newz Kennels. In paragraph 13, the complaint refers to the charging of admission fees for persons attending the fights. "If an admission fee was charged for a particular event," the complaint states, "the proceeds were generally used to supplement the funding of the 'Bad Newz Kennels' kennel operation."
The key word in that passage is "supplement." As we've previously noted, someone had to be paying for the care and feeding of 50-plus dogs. If, as has been reported elsewhere, none of the persons living in Vick's house were employed, where was the primary funding of the operation coming from?
SELECTED PASSAGES FROM THE VICK COMPLAINT
A copy of the federal complaint regarding the dog-fighting investigation at the Surry County, Virginia property owned by Falcons quarterback Mike Vick has been available for a few days, yet we haven't seen anyone weave many of the key passages from it into media reports regarding the issue.
We mention this because we received an e-mail from a member of the national media this morning who described some of the details as "frightening."
So here are some selected quotes from the document, which was filed by the feds in an effort to secure possession of the 54 dogs seized from the Vick property in April 2007.
Paragraph 9 of the document confirms that "[m]any of the [54] pit bulldogs recovered or observed in the search had scars and injuries consistent with injuries sustained in dog fighting." (Previously, there was a dispute -- fueled in part by Surry County prosecutor Gerald Poindexter -- regarding whether the dogs taken from the land were scarred or injured.)
Paragraph 10 lists the additional items recovered and observed in the initial search in April: "a blood-stained fighting area; animal training and breeding equipment, including a 'rape stand,' a 'break' or 'parting' stick, treadmills and 'slat mills;' assorted paperwork documenting involvement in animal fighting ventures; and performance enhancing pharmaceuticals commonly used to increase fighting potential in dogs trained for fighting, as well as to keep injured dogs fighting longer." We highlighted the reference to paperwork documenting involvement in animal fighting ventures because we hadn't previously seen this aspect of the seized property reported anywhere.
Paragraph 11 says that members and associates of "Bad Newz Kennels," which was operated out of the Vick property, sponsored and exhibited pit bull fights at the Vick property and in Blackstone, Virginia, in North Carolina, South Carolina, Maryland, New Jersey, and in other states.
Paragraph 12 says that dog fights have been sponsored on Vick's property since 2002, with dogs from South Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, New York, Texas, and other states engaged in the "competition."
Paragraph 13 contains some of the details regarding the pre-fight preparations. "The two dogs participating in a particular fight had to be the same weight and sex. Before a fight would start, the participants would weigh and bathe the dogs. The fighting weight would be established before the fight, requiring the opponent dogs to measure within approximately one-half pound of the set weight. . . . The opposing dogs were washed before a fight to remove any poison or narcotic placed on the dog's coat -- if the opposing dog would bite the 'tainted' dog that was coated with poison or narcotic, this would affect the opposing dog's performance during the fight. The participants would sometimes stop feeding the fighting dog before the scheduled fights, in order to make it hungry for the other dog."
Paragraph 14 explains that the fights at the Vick property "generally occurred late at night or early in the morning, sometimes involving 2-3 separate matches, and would last several hours." The persons in attendance were "[g]enerally" limited to persons accompanying Bad Newz Kennels members and persons accompanying the members of opposing kennels. "For a particular dog fight, the opponents would establish a purse for the winning side, ranging from 100's up to 1,000's of dollars. Participants and spectators would also place side-bets on the fight, dependant on the ultimate outcome or certain events occurring during the course of the dog fight."
Paragraph 14 also contains some grisly details regarding the aftermath of the eventws. "The dog fight would last to the end, which would generally involve the death or surrender of the losing dog. At the end of the fight, the losing dog was sometimes put to death by drowning, strangulation, hanging, gun shot, electrocution, or some other method. The members of 'Bad Newz Kennels' would sometimes 'test' the pit bulls in their inventory, determining if a particular dog was 'game,' meaning that it would be a good fighter. Sometimes, the dogs deemed not to be good fighters would be put to death."
Though the media was quick to point out that Mike Vick's name appears nowhere in the complaint, no names are mentioned. Instead, the complaint refers in several places to the "members of 'Bad Newz Kennels,'" without identifying any of said members.
But we saw at least one hint in the complaint that suggests to us a belief by the feds that Vick is one of the members of Bad Newz Kennels. In paragraph 13, the complaint refers to the charging of admission fees for persons attending the fights. "If an admission fee was charged for a particular event," the complaint states, "the proceeds were generally used to supplement the funding of the 'Bad Newz Kennels' kennel operation."
The key word in that passage is "supplement." As we've previously noted, someone had to be paying for the care and feeding of 50-plus dogs. If, as has been reported elsewhere, none of the persons living in Vick's house were employed, where was the primary funding of the operation coming from?
zeromaster
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In some circumstances, an absentee owner can bear a degree of responsibility for what goes on. Whether that comes into play here, due to state/federal laws, only time will tell. Did anyone mention before whether this property had been put up for sale prior to the on-site carnival of state and federal fuzz? If so, the timing of that is also interesting.deadrody;1548204 said:
As for getting a life, the people so opposed to the discussion should also remember the venue: a message board. You're free to read or not read as you wish. But try stopping short of legislating behavior for the rest of the group, ok? Yeah it may be boring, but so is the offseason.
fortdick
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Last May, a law went into effect that made it a felony under Fed Law to fight dogs. Vick'd case could be the first real test of the new law. The Feds might wish to make a statement here.
If the organization is as large as they suspect, don't be surprised if the go RICO on this one. It is usually a gang controlled business and if they can make a tie, the can call it racketeering.
THis could get a lot larger.
If the organization is as large as they suspect, don't be surprised if the go RICO on this one. It is usually a gang controlled business and if they can make a tie, the can call it racketeering.
THis could get a lot larger.
Kilyin
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deadrody;1548204 said:
Seriously, are you ********?
This whole investigation has been amateur at best. The 'investigation' literally took WEEKS to ever take place, and by then the 'well secured' crime scene had been 'broken into' and likely any really incriminating evidence removed.
But I guess these little inconvenient facts slipped your mind.
Big Dakota
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5Stars;1548511 said:
I love that line from Eight Men Out. Lot's of Hap Felsh's running around here