Football 101: The Talent Evaluation Process

[Alexander]

Ciskowski is far more involved in the football operations than Jerry Jones.

All. Timer.

You heard it here. In this "101" thread.

Get educated, people.

The real power broker in football operations in Dallas is good ol' reliable Tom Ciskowski.

 

[Hostile]

All. Timer.

You heard it here. In this "101" thread.

Get educated, people.

I also said, "so is Stephen."

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229664&highlight=stephen+jones

Call that...education. I only made that claim 3 years ago.

 

[Alexander]

I also said, "so is Stephen."

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229664&highlight=stephen+jones

Call that...education. I only made that claim 3 years ago.

So--you threw Ciskowski out there first because?

A lot of people would buy the Stephen thing.

You should have gone that route.

 

[Dodger12]

Your next comment will be that Tomlin didn't hire his own DC but any new HC with half a brain would keep arguably the best DC in the game.

Kind of like the Steelers GM (assuming here, since Rooney II doesn't do any of the hiring/firing) hiring Mike Tomlin and telling him that his defensive coordinator would be Dick LeBeau?

All too easy and predictable..........and you're assuming that a new HC would have to be told to keep one of the best DC's in the game.

 

[Hostile]

So--you threw Ciskowski out there first because?

A lot of people would buy the Stephen thing.

You should have gone that route.

Because he is the talent evaluator as I laid out in the OP...

...thought that was obvious.

 

[Dodger12]

Definitely agree with that. A GM shouldn't be hiring the staff for his head coach. There needs to be a chain of command and boundaries respected. When you hire your head coach, you've already discussed potential staff hires. So you factor that in when making your decision on who the next head coach will be.

But to hire a head coach and then tell him who his assistants will be is just as bad as an owner with no personnel background naming himself the team's GM.

Some people have to mold their philosophy to fit into our (ie: Dallas') model and convince themselves it's the norm. They have to, because the alternative is too unimaginable.

The sad reality is that this team post Jimmy Johnson has been saddled with poor coaching hires with the exception of BP. And even then it was to give Jerry credibility to build his stadium. JG winning when Wade was fired let Jerry off the hook because it validated, at least in his mind, JG's hiring and he was able to sell him to the masses AND stay in his comfort zone for a head coach.

This team has quickly deteriorated to the point that we have a franchise QB who had a very good season and the best we can muster is 8 and 8. That's acceptable to some because Jerry's ineptitude has lowered many people's expectations. I refuse to go that route.

 

[Alexander]

Some people have to mold their philosophy to fit into our (ie: Dallas') model and convince themselves it's the norm. They have to, because the alternative is too unimaginable.

Impossible.

Anyone that is dissatisfied with this model that has not worked for what is soon to be two decades is either a "hater" or simply not in the know.

I do not care what the structure is to be honest.

All I know is that it is not working.

Because if it was, you see, we would have more than one playoff win during that sixteen year time frame.

I guess there is some latitude to be given "hoping" that this "new" model with Garrett involved is going to make a difference.

All I can say is don't hold your breath.

 

[casmith07]

All too easy and predictable..........and you're assuming that a new HC would have to be told to keep one of the best DC's in the game.

I need to make sure that I bolt those goalposts down.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Impossible.

Anyone that is dissatisfied with this model that has not worked for what is soon to be two decades is either a "hater" or simply not in the know.

I do not care what the structure is to be honest.

All I know is that it is not working.

Because if it was, you see, we would have more than one playoff win during that sixteen year time frame.

I guess there is some latitude to be given "hoping" that this "new" model with Garrett involved is going to make a difference.

All I can say is don't hold your breath.

The problem is when Jerry Jones goes maverick and trades high draft picks for WRs. The last two years we have been very good at acquiring talent. The team didn't give up and there was not dissension in the locker room thta you typically attribute to a meddling owner. We jsut lack talent in no small part due to the Roy Williams trade loss of picks and subsequent cap circumstances due to that asinine contract.

the last two drafts and FA periods have been very fruitful.

 

[Dodger12]

I need to make sure that I bolt those goalposts down.

Bolt them down for your own use. You asked a question and got an answer. You then respond to that answer with another question. Who's the one moving the goal posts......?

 

[junk]

The problem is when Jerry Jones goes maverick and trades high draft picks for WRs. The last two years we have been very good at acquiring talent. The team didn't give up and there was not dissension in the locker room thta you typically attribute to a meddling owner. We jsut lack talent in no small part due to the Roy Williams trade loss of picks and subsequent cap circumstances due to that asinine contract.

the last two drafts and FA periods have been very fruitful.

Yes and no. I agree on the WR thing.

There are certain inexplicable things that happen with this franchise that almost certainly originate from Jerry. I'm pretty sure both the bad WR trades, Quincy/Hutch/Henson, Buehler and 2009 in general can be associated with Jerry. I'm pretty sure Dez was his call and we'll see how that turns out.

2010 was good at the top. Lee is going to be a solid player for a long time (if he stays healthy) and Dez can be great if he gets his head on straight. Other than Lissemore late though, there isn't anyone on the team left from 2010.

2011 looks better. Tyron looks like a hit. Murray looked good, but he's another "if he stays healthy guy". I'm anxious to see what he does with a full season. Carter is a question mark as well as Arkin. Nagy, for a 7th rounder, is good value (again, late rounds and UDFAs)

The thing that did impress me this year was Fiametta and Robinson. It's been awhile since Dallas has picked a guy up off the street like those two that contributed. That might be Garrett as I don't think Phillips was really much of a roster churner.

However, this team isn't consistently stockpiling talent. They are drafting guys to replace guys they missed on. Dez for Roy Williams. Murray for Felix/Barber. Lee for Jason Williams. They are treading water and not improving. Their record shows it.

 

[junk]

Some other random things that bother me about this franchise. I definitely feel that some are influenced by the odd power structure in the Dallas front office.

They don't develop leaders. This has been obvious the last couple of years. Not sure if it because of the type of guys they draft or the environment, but this team tends to finger point and quit when things get tough.

They cling to vets for too long and seem to have a reluctance to stockpile positions. For example, Miles Austin may never have seen the field if Roy Williams hadn't gotten hurt. They later released T.O. claiming he was a "progress stopper". Is that preventing them from stockpiling talent at a position because of a player already on the roster? Will the team avoid drafting a guard this year because of Arkin? A NT because of Ratliff?

Somewhere, somehow, Jerry picked up something about a kicker being a weapon. This whole Buehler thing is ridiculous and I'm sure that is driven by Jerry. That flies in the face of Parcells making sure everyone contributes. He agonized over the 45 man game day roster. I wish Jerry remembered that. Jerry wants two kickers.

They overrate the talent on the team. 2009 was just arrogant. Reminded me of the "special teams" draft back in the day. They try to take short cuts to win and think they are closer than they are (Roy Williams)

Bad contracts - Why was Ratliff extended with 2 years remaining? Why was Sensabaugh extended and give $8 million guaranteed? Nobody wanted the guy the last two years.

 

[Doomsay]

Some people have to mold their philosophy to fit into our (ie: Dallas') model and convince themselves it's the norm. They have to, because the alternative is too unimaginable.

The sad reality is that this team post Jimmy Johnson has been saddled with poor coaching hires with the exception of BP. And even then it was to give Jerry credibility to build his stadium. JG winning when Wade was fired let Jerry off the hook because it validated, at least in his mind, JG's hiring and he was able to sell him to the masses AND stay in his comfort zone for a head coach.

This team has quickly deteriorated to the point that we have a franchise QB who had a very good season and the best we can muster is 8 and 8. That's acceptable to some because Jerry's ineptitude has lowered many people's expectations. I refuse to go that route.

Or improbable, with the clothe-less emperor ascendant.

 

[Mr Cowboy]

Impossible.

Anyone that is dissatisfied with this model that has not worked for what is soon to be two decades is either a "hater" or simply not in the know.

I do not care what the structure is to be honest.

All I know is that it is not working.

Because if it was, you see, we would have more than one playoff win during that sixteen year time frame.

I guess there is some latitude to be given "hoping" that this "new" model with Garrett involved is going to make a difference.

All I can say is don't hold your breath.

That's what I'm saying, if this is the standard way of doing business in the NFL, we need to move in a different direction. The status quo is not working and hasn't for a long while.

Jerry and the front office need to determine a direction for this team and stick to it for the long term. What happens is this team has a good season, and Jerry convinces himself that he is a special teams draft away from the super bowl, instead of staying true to the plan and draft with the team's philosophy in mind. Roy Williams was not the missing piece to a championship, but Jerry pulled the trigger nonetheless, and the team in now paying for it.

If you don't see it, then those colored glasses need to come off.

 

[Hostile]

That's what I'm saying, if this is the standard way of doing business in the NFL, we need to move in a different direction. The status quo is not working and hasn't for a long while.

Jerry and the front office need to determine a direction for this team and stick to it for the long term. What happens is this team has a good season, and Jerry convinces himself that he is a special teams draft away from the super bowl, instead of staying true to the plan and draft with the team's philosophy in mind. Roy Williams was not the missing piece to a championship, but Jerry pulled the trigger nonetheless, and the team in now paying for it.

If you don't see it, then those colored glasses need to come off.

The "status quo" worked for the Giants twice in the last 5 seasons, for the Packers last year, the Steelers, and Colts.

This is how teams operate. They have regional scouts who report to the team talent evaluators (numerous titles, not just GM), who report these to coaches and executives. Teams then compile the info and create the Draft Boards, and Free Agency plans.

I am sorry that we are not unique, but not since the days when the Cowboys were using computers (and no one else was) have teams been that different in their personnel policies. That is really just the truth.

Dallas is unique in really only one aspect. Jerry is a celebrity owner who likes the spotlight. I have learned not to care about that. In all other ways we are pretty similar to the rest of the NFL.

 

[Alexander]

Jerry and the front office need to determine a direction for this team and stick to it for the long term. What happens is this team has a good season, and Jerry convinces himself that he is a special teams draft away from the super bowl, instead of staying true to the plan and draft with the team's philosophy in mind. Roy Williams was not the missing piece to a championship, but Jerry pulled the trigger nonetheless, and the team in now paying for it.

This is why he is the real problem. He should be setting the direction and tone for the franchise. But he changes coaches and methods constantly.

One minute, the coaches have the most say in the process. The next time, he is listening to the scouts more. If they had a decent season, they stand pat and think every spot in the roster is filled.

And it all boils down to the fact that he has no eye for talent and no stable vision for how to win. You would think a man who has three trophies would have a method. He does not. He is all over the place, reacting to trends he sees around him.

 

[Alexander]

The "status quo" worked for the Giants twice in the last 5 seasons, for the Packers last year, the Steelers, and Colts.

All of those teams have an organizational direction. And most were built through rational, methodical and non-reactive drafting.

Everyone knows what a Steeler LBer is going to be like. Everyone knows the Giants under Reese are going to build around the pass rush. Everyone knows with Ted Thompson, the Packers will take a QB every year and stockpile depth across the roster. Everyone knew how Polian operated his drafts taking players that best fit their defensive and offensive systems.

These teams are consistent and have a singular direction. And what you always saw with those clubs is process improvement, every year being self-critical. They were not tweaking the systems that worked. They were layering into that system and getting the best fits. If there is one other major problem with Dallas is that with our leadership, we are horrible at self-evaluation and are too apt to think areas are okay that when it actually is not, it turns into a complete disaster. There is no planning for contingencies because we are far too busy plugging whatever hole popped up the previous season.

Dallas is not consistent from year to year in regards to drafting directives. One year it is special teams only because the roster is set. The next there is a full blown panic to get whatever perceived weak group on the roster addressed. Regardless of who the information gatherer is (in our case Ciskowski) or how thorough they are, if the organizational tone that is set by the GM is wrong or misguided, it does not matter.

 

[Mr Cowboy]

The "status quo" worked for the Giants twice in the last 5 seasons, for the Packers last year, the Steelers, and Colts.

This is how teams operate. They have regional scouts who report to the team talent evaluators (numerous titles, not just GM), who report these to coaches and executives. Teams then compile the info and create the Draft Boards, and Free Agency plans.

I am sorry that we are not unique, but not since the days when the Cowboys were using computers (and no one else was) have teams been that different in their personnel policies. That is really just the truth.

Dallas is unique in really only one aspect. Jerry is a celebrity owner who likes the spotlight. I have learned not to care about that. In all other ways we are pretty similar to the rest of the NFL.

Hos, the Giants stay true to their plan, they build thier lines, every draft, every free agency period. They don't drift from their plan. They have a plan, a vision as to how they want to build the team. When their players get older and can't contribute they don't throw another contract at them. Look at Boss and Steve Smith. Same with most successful teams. When and if it no longer works, they clean house and do something else.

What the Cowboys have been doing for the past decade and a half is not working. It must change! It happens in big corporations all the time. And its time for a change here. When something doesn't work, you don't keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results.

Whether Jerry is the celebrity owner or not, that is irrelevant, he needs to step back and realize that his method is not working. He should realize that a Championshop team, whether he takes all the credit or not, provides him with much more opportunities at being a celebrity owner, and much richer too boot.

 

[Dodger12]

The "status quo" worked for the Giants twice in the last 5 seasons, for the Packers last year, the Steelers, and Colts.

There's nothing about the Giants being "status quo". They made the SB in the recent past with both Kerry Collins and Eli Manning. They replaced Strahan, Burress, Amani Toomer, Steve Smith, Jeremy Shockey, Sam Madison, Antonio Pierce, and lord knows who else from 2007 to 2011; they revamped most of their OL. They changed their HC from 2000 to 2007.

Dallas is unique in really only one aspect. Jerry is a celebrity owner who likes the spotlight. I have learned not to care about that. In all other ways we are pretty similar to the rest of the NFL.

It's OK to be an owner who likes the spotlight. He's just a poor GM and there's no disputing that. You mentioned in another post who the "realists" will make a scapegoat down the road and mentioned TC. In your model of shared responsibility and decision making, it takes the heat off of the GM (who has no bearing in winning and losing in you model) and invites another scapegoat. I think that's ironic.

But let me ask you one thing and I'd like an honest answer. Do you think JG appreciated or approved of Jerry coming down to the sidelines to discuss gameday strategy during a live game with playoff implications?

 

[5Stars]

Regardless of who the information gatherer is (in our case Ciskowski) or how thorough they are, if the organizational tone that is set by the GM is wrong or misguided, it does not matter.

Wow, yet you proclaim to still be a Cowboy fan? Why torment yourself? It would seem that you are just as stupid as you say Jerry is for sticking around.

Now that is the definition idiocy.

I know that if I don't like something for whatever reason, I leave it alone, I don't stick around moaning about something I have no control over. That is, unless you are renting that Billboard!