Free Agents - Fix 2002 draft

[Rush 2112]

I think they both fit but not starting outside.

Leber has proven he's not starting caliber at SOLB. Could be a good depth guy inside or out.

I'm targeting Ayodele inside.

He was 257 coming out of school and had 29 sacks.

8.5 sacks playing outside in 4-3 with one less season starting than Leber who was in a scheme far more conducive to LB's piling up sack #'s.

Leber maxed out at 244 with mediocre #'s as a starting SOLB.

Ayodele trimmed down to from 257 to 245 to fit in 4-3.

I'll take either but Leber is not a starter and Ayodele has major upside in 3-4 scheme.

 

[Alexander]

I'm targeting Ayodele inside.

Well, this is a stretch. Everything I have ever read about him has him as strictly an outside linebacker.

 

[AbeBeta]

I'm targeting Ayodele inside.

Yeah. BP loves moving guys around. It is one thing to give a scrub like Ogubu a chance to move -- it is a whole 'nuther thing to pay a free agent and then ask him to play a completely new position.

 

[Rush 2112]

Colvin produced sacks in the NFL. In his first four years he got 26 of them. That's more than 3 times what Oyedele has.

That says to me that Oye is not a quality NFL pass rusher.

A) We're comparing Ayodele and Leber

B) They weren't in the same system, asked to do the same things or surrounded by the same talent..

Fact: 3 sacks a year by your SOLB in a 3-4 isn't getting it done.

How does your little Colvin formula work with Leber's #'s?

 

[Rush 2112]

Yeah. BP loves moving guys around. It is one thing to give a scrub like Ogubu a chance to move -- it is a whole 'nuther thing to pay a free agent and then ask him to play a completely new position.

Bruschi, McGinest, Ware, Ferguson, Spears, Petiti, Rogers, Abraham, Banks, Crayton.

What position changes?

 

[AbeBeta]

A) We're comparing Ayodele and Leber

B) They weren't in the same system, asked to do the same things or surrounded by the same talent..

Fact: 3 sacks a year by your SOLB in a 3-4 isn't getting it done.

How does your little Colvin formula work with Leber's #'s?

you brought up Colvin.

I don't like Leber.

 

[AbeBeta]

Bruschi, McGinest, Ware, Ferguson, Spears, Petiti, Rogers, Abraham, Banks, Crayton.

What position changes?

LT to RT? DE to 3-4 OLB. At least those make sense.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Leber did very well at Kansas State and is in the same range. Why not him?

I put a post up about Leber on a Chargers board, and the overwhelming consensus was that Leber was merely a decent player who you wouldn't want starting on a championship team. Most posters thought he wouldn't be any better than Fujita once Fujita got more experience.

 

[AbeBeta]

I put a post up about Leber on a Chargers board, and the overwhelming consensus was that Leber was merely a decent player who you wouldn't want starting on a championship team. Most posters thought he wouldn't be any better than Fujita once Fujita got more experience.

Hold on now. this isn't a thread for the opinions of people who actually know something about the players.

 

[Rush 2112]

LT to RT? DE to 3-4 OLB. At least those make sense.

Yes, your correct. Learning to do things backwards or play in a completely different scheme with totally different techniques makes sense and is much easier. Only took Vrabel 6 years to pick up playing OLB vs 4-3 DE. Jason Babin can handle it with his eyes closed. Petiti and Alex Barron reminded everyone of Jackie Slater and Eric Williams.:laugh2: :laugh1:

How does moving an OLB inside not make sense?

See Vrabel this year.

See Giants in 80's under BP.

See Chad Brown.

See BP's talk about James and Fowler possibly moving when we had no depth at OLB.

Bradie James played 2 years at OLB in the 4-3 and then moved to what this year?

Where did he play in college?

You may not have noticed but KC did this Ayodele move in reverse with Kendrell Bell.

James Farrior?

Jamie Sharper?

Randall Godfrey?

Donnie Edwards?

This OLB to ILB we're talking about not OG to OT (Tucker), FS to CB (Hunter) or DE to OLB like Ware or all these hybrids that struggle.

It kinda looks like it's been done before.......

Alot.

 

[Alexander]

I put a post up about Leber on a Chargers board, and the overwhelming consensus was that Leber was merely a decent player who you wouldn't want starting on a championship team. Most posters thought he wouldn't be any better than Fujita once Fujita got more experience.

Can you go to a Jaguars board, Choc?

I bet you see the same type of thing. From my understanding the Jaguars were trying to upgrade the spot (in fact that's one of the reasons they traded for Winborn). They would like to hang onto him, but everything I have read indicates they wouldn't be devastated if they lost him.

 

[AbeBeta]

How does moving an OLB inside not make sense?

It doesn't make sense for a guy who was a college DE who never played ILB.

But it really doesn't make sense to pay free agent money to a guy and then ask him to play a position he NEVER played.

Again, it is fine to do that with scrubs but how can a team pay a free agent salary to a guy just to see if MAYBE he can play ILB?

 

[Rush 2112]

It doesn't make sense for a guy who was a college DE who never played ILB.

But it really doesn't make sense to pay free agent money to a guy and then ask him to play a position he NEVER played.

Again, it is fine to do that with scrubs but how can a team pay a free agent salary to a guy just to see if MAYBE he can play ILB?

Happens every single year. Ware never played OLB until we drafted him #11. Didn't he start out as a WR at Troy? McGinest was a top ten pick and was a college DE. Houston gave up like 4 picks to draft Babin as a OLB after playing college DE.

Porter?
Vrabel?
Colvin?

It's called projecting!!!!

Bruschi played LB first then moved to DE at ASU.

Guess what Ayodele did?

It's about size, technique, projecting and athleticism, not what they use to play.

 

[AbeBeta]

Happens every single year.

And how often do teams pay $ for an FA and then move him to a position he never played?

you can preach this all you want but it is not happening. i doubt either the team that signs him or Ayedole himself are comfortable with the move.

now son, get off the computer, go to the record store and find yourself something better than Rush to listen to. :laugh2:

 

[Alexander]

Happens every single year. Ware never played OLB until we drafted him #11. Didn't he start out as a WR at Troy? McGinest was a top ten pick and was a college DE. Houston gave up like 4 picks to draft Babin as a OLB after playing college DE.

Porter?
Vrabel?
Colvin?

It's called projecting!!!!

Bruschi played LB first then moved to DE at ASU.

Guess what Ayodele did?

It's about size, technique, projecting and athleticism, not what they use to play.

DE to OLB or vice versa is totally different from just automatically assuming he shifts to ILB after playing outside on the edges his entire career.

And you are talking about special players in the Centaur and Porter.

Are you implying SuperAyodele is in that echelon?

 

[Rush 2112]

And how often do teams pay $ for an FA and then move him to a position he never played?

you can preach this all you want but it is not happening. i doubt either the team that signs him or Ayedole himself are comfortable with the move.

now son, get off the computer, go to the record store and find yourself something better than Rush to listen to. :laugh2:

4-3 DT to 3-4 NT all the time.

Farrior, Donnie Edwards, Randall Godfrey, Steve Foley, Chad Brown, Kendrell Bell, Troy Vincent, Jamie Sharper.

Teams use first day picks to do it all the time. Last couple of drafts Boulware to SS, Matt Jones to WR, Babin/Ware to OLB, Castillo/Spears to 3-4 DE.

No money invested in those guys.

Don't hate on Rush just because you can't flip the pages in the Thesaurus/Dictionary fast enough.

Show me a better drummer, lyricist, bassist, trio who puts out that sound and has been together north of 30 years.

Poison doesn't count.

 

[AbeBeta]

4-3 DT to 3-4 NT all the time.

Farrior, Donnie Edwards, Randall Godfrey, Steve Foley, Chad Brown, Kendrell Bell, Troy Vincent, Jamie Sharper.

Teams use first day picks to do it all the time. Last couple of drafts Boulware to SS, Matt Jones to WR, Babin/Ware to OLB, Castillo/Spears to 3-4 DE.

No money invested in those guys.

Don't hate on Rush just because you can't flip the pages in the Thesaurus/Dictionary fast enough.

Show me a better drummer, lyricist, bassist, trio who puts out that sound and has been together north of 30 years.

Poison doesn't count.

so let me ask this - does Ayodele want to move inside? seems to me if I sign an FA deal, I want to continue to play in a position where I will have success. and frankly, if I sign an FA I don't want to gamble on him learning a new position.

and only a 12 year old would need a dictionary to understand rush lyrics.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Can you go to a Jaguars board, Choc?

I bet you see the same type of thing. From my understanding the Jaguars were trying to upgrade the spot (in fact that's one of the reasons they traded for Winborn). They would like to hang onto him, but everything I have read indicates they wouldn't be devastated if they lost him.

LOL... I don't know anything about Ayodele and wouldn't even know what to ask. I liked Leber since he came out of college and suspected he might be a good fit for us, which is why I went and asked about him.

One big difference here is that Leber has already played the exact spot in the 34 he'd play here, so there's something to go on. As the other guys are talking about, it's a tougher projection when you're changing schemes like Ayodele would be doing. Could we still project it and go after him? Sure, we did that with Fujita. But it might be tougher for your average Jags layman to know how he'd play as a 34 OLB.

But back to the discussion of how good these guys are... Unless either is a substantial upgrade over Fujita, I don't see the point in doing it. Fujita wasn't good, but he wasn't horrible either, and it was his first time in the scheme with no training camp. It's not unreasonable to expect him to be a little better next year. So I don't see the point in targeting a free agent who might not be much better than what we have. In that case, I'd rather we took a guy in the draft who at least has a big upside.

 

[Alexander]

LOL... I don't know anything about Ayodele and wouldn't even know what to ask.

Then get with the program and hop on board the Ayodele Express destination: SUPER BOWL.

One big difference here is that Leber has already played the exact spot in the 34 he'd play here, so there's something to go on. As the other guys are talking about, it's a tougher projection when you're changing schemes like Ayodele would be doing. Could we still project it and go after him? Sure, we did that with Fujita. But it might be tougher for your average Jags layman to know how he'd play as a 34 OLB.

Correct.

But back to the discussion of how good these guys are... Unless either is a substantial upgrade over Fujita, I don't see the point in doing it. Fujita wasn't good, but he wasn't horrible either, and it was his first time in the scheme with no training camp. It's not unreasonable to expect him to be a little better next year. So I don't see the point in targeting a free agent who might not be much better than what we have. In that case, I'd rather we took a guy in the draft who at least has a big upside.

But according to some, Fujita is just a terrible awful player. Did you not get the memo?

 

[Chocolate Lab]

But according to some, Fujita is just a terrible awful player. Did you not get the memo?

Nobody ever tells me anything...

We should start a discussion of what we'd be actually willing to pay for the players available. I get your point that Adoyele is no sure thing... But he might turn into something, too. What should we be willing to pay for that?

I'll say this, at least he looks like he'd have some upside. I've been convinced that Leber doesn't have much, if any, over Fujita. I wonder what others think.