FWST JFE: Jason Garrett: the next Sean Payton?

[theogt]

Original Post...
"I do think people here can be ridiculously hard on Garrett. But I don't give much credibility to those folks who poo-poo Garrett's lack of experience but at the same time consider themselves fully qualified to provide definitive critique from their couch. Sure, share an opinion. But couch it in a little humility just in case (*gasp*) you could be wrong."

I reworded to add clarity to the original post above. It doesn't say something entirely different. "Definitive critique" is certainly broader than looking at someone's resume.

But whatever you wish to believe...

You didn't even qualify "definitive critique" to even Garrett, much less any particular criticism of Garrett, thus it's irrelevant to the critique that you're attacking in terms of Garrett.

The sole critique that your original post attacked was the one that "poo-poo Garrett's lack of experience." That's it. Lack of experience. Experience is almost solely gauged by years of service in a given position. That's about as objective as you can get, which is why I used the 40 time analogy.

But if you want to claim that you intended something entirely different with more qualifiers and elaborations, then go right ahead.

 

[Eskimo]

This is absurd. Maybe we should reduce his role, but to say Marion hasn't been great at times is foolish.

We haven't seen any "greatness" in the last two years out of Barber. Whethere there was any true "greatness" before that is debateable.

He is a niche player earning an elite salary - it won't go on much longer.

I'm afraid that what "greatness" that previously existed was beaten out of him over the last four years of massive hits - he is just worn out, IMO. I don't know if he'll do better in a more reserved role but we'll probably get a chance to see this season.

 

[burmafrd]

One should remember that Payton in Dallas had Bledsoe as QB in 2005 and remember what he had before? Vinny. While Garret has had Romo.

 

[punchnjudy]

This isn't a time where I would want Dallas to promote a head coach prematurely just to keep him from getting away. If he isn't ready to be a head coach (and it's my opinion that he isn't), I don't want him taking over after next year.

If the team was in the cellar and facing a 2-3 year rebuilding process, then I'd feel differently.

 

[NextGenBoys]

There are three things stopping our offense in the red zone:

1) Execution
2) Play Calling
3) Coaching

All three of these things go hand in hand. Some people only point to one of the three and that's how this board goes "Over The Top."

Sometimes the right play is called but a player drops the ball, that goes to execution.

Sometimes we go with a one dimensional series of play calls and when the defense makes it's adjustments it has the advantage because we lose the element of surprise.

And sometimes we have guys playing injured who should be on the bench and that hurts the team, that is on the coaches...


All three of these things combined have bogged down this offense. Some can make stronger arguments for any one of the three but the reality is that they are only focusing on that one thing because it is the most obvious to them.

Good post no argument with any of that.

More people need to realize that football isn't just one thing that fails. I agree it basically comes down to three main points.

It helps execution when players are put in positions to succeed, and it helps putting players in position when they're playing well and with confidence.

Great post.

 

[DaBoys4Life]

Jason Garrett is not the next Sean Payton.

 

[Hostile]

Jason Garrett is not the next Sean Payton.

I agree with you for a change. He's been better than Sean Payton at equal times in their careers. Clearly he is ahead of the curve.

But I doubt that is what you meant, so we really didn't agree.

 

[Monster Heel]

The next Sean Payton is such a poor offensive coordinator at times that people think think that he needs quality control. Are you sure JFE wrote this article and not one of the homers here?:laugh2:

(For the record: I thought Garrett showed progress as a coordinator this year.)

 

[CoCo]

You didn't even qualify "definitive critique" to even Garrett, much less any particular criticism of Garrett, thus it's irrelevant to the critique that you're attacking in terms of Garrett.

The sole critique that your original post attacked was the one that "poo-poo Garrett's lack of experience." That's it. Lack of experience. Experience is almost solely gauged by years of service in a given position. That's about as objective as you can get, which is why I used the 40 time analogy.

But if you want to claim that you intended something entirely different with more qualifiers and elaborations, then go right ahead.

No thanks. Pointless with you. Have a really nice day.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I agree with you for a change. He's been better than Sean Payton at equal times in their careers. Clearly he is ahead of the curve.

But I doubt that is what you meant, so we really didn't agree.

 

[theogt]

No thanks. Pointless with you. Have a really nice day.

This has to be your shortest post in history.

For that, I declare victory.

 

[theogt]

I agree with you for a change. He's been better than Sean Payton at equal times in their careers. Clearly he is ahead of the curve.

But I doubt that is what you meant, so we really didn't agree.

Has he been better or did he just step into a better situation?

In all three times in which Sean Payton stepped into a coordinator role (including New Orleans where he is also the offensive coordinator), he has significantly improved the offense.

Dallas, on the other hand, was a top 5 offense in terms of yards and scoring before Garrett got the job, and the offense has taken a step back, at least in terms of scoring, despite having what almost anyone would consider to be a more talented team.

 

[Hostile]

Has he been better or did he just step into a better situation?

In all three times in which Sean Payton stepped into a coordinator role (including New Orleans where he is also the offensive coordinator), he has significantly improved the offense.

Dallas, on the other hand, was a top 5 offense in terms of yards and scoring before Garrett got the job, and the offense has taken a step back, at least in terms of scoring, despite having what almost anyone would consider to be a more talented team.

Sean Payton's first 3 years as an OC were not in Dallas, they were in New York with the Gaints. I want to make that clear from the get go.

In 1999 he was the QB Coach for the Giants and in 2000 he took over. So he did not have a transition to an unfamiliar Offense.

Garrett came here from Miami. He did inherit new personnel.

Garrett's 3 years in Dallas have yielded better Offensive results than Sean Payton's best 3 years as an OC.

I believe Payton is a better Head Coach than he was an Offensive Coordinator and I really like him, but let's be honest, he had a great first year and 2 sub par year before this year they were amazing. This year he had a Defense worthy of matching his Offense.

I think Garrett will be every bit as good. I also think he has been a better OC than Payton was.

 

[peplaw06]

Sean Payton's first 3 years as an OC were not in Dallas, they were in New York with the Gaints. I want to make that clear from the get go.

In 1999 he was the QB Coach for the Giants and in 2000 he took over. So he did not have a transition to an unfamiliar Offense.

Garrett came here from Miami. He did inherit new personnel.

Garrett's 3 years in Dallas have yielded better Offensive results than Sean Payton's best 3 years as an OC.

I believe Payton is a better Head Coach than he was an Offensive Coordinator and I really like him, but let's be honest, he had a great first year and 2 sub par year before this year they were amazing. This year he had a Defense worthy of matching his Offense.

I think Garrett will be every bit as good. I also think he has been a better OC than Payton was.

Payton was apparently so bad in NY that he had his playcalling duties stripped in the middle of the season by Fassel IIRC.

 

[theogt]

Sean Payton's first 3 years as an OC were not in Dallas, they were in New York with the Gaints. I want to make that clear from the get go.

That's why I said all three times (NY, Dallas, NO).

In 1999 he was the QB Coach for the Giants and in 2000 he took over. So he did not have a transition to an unfamiliar Offense.

Garrett came here from Miami. He did inherit new personnel.

Garrett's 3 years in Dallas have yielded better Offensive results than Sean Payton's best 3 years as an OC.

I believe Payton is a better Head Coach than he was an Offensive Coordinator and I really like him, but let's be honest, he had a great first year and 2 sub par year before this year they were amazing. This year he had a Defense worthy of matching his Offense.

I think Garrett will be every bit as good. I also think he has been a better OC than Payton was.

The Giants offense improved significantly under Payton. They were consistently in the 20s in terms of yards and scoring in the years before he took over as coordinator, but improved year over year during his tenure.

Saying that Garrett's 3 years in Dallas have yielded better offensive results than Payton's best 3 years is basically meaningless. You can't look at absolute results and claim that one did a better job. The bottom line is that Payton's offenses improved after he took over. And Garrett's offense regressed in some areas after he took over. That may be coincidence and due to factors outside of each man's influence, but those are the facts that we do know, so it seems impossible for anyone to suggest that Garrett is better at this point in his career than Payton.

 

[theogt]

Payton was apparently so bad in NY that he had his playcalling duties stripped in the middle of the season by Fassel IIRC.

Fassel later stated, while Payton was in Dallas, that it was not his decision and that it was a poor decision because he was such a good coordinator. Apparently it was a "management" reaction to fan hysteria; probably something akin to if Jerry had fired Wade after the first few games of 2009. In hindsight it would have been an incredibly stupid decision, but almost every fan wanted it at the time.

 

[wileedog]

Payton was apparently so bad in NY that he had his playcalling duties stripped in the middle of the season by Fassel IIRC.

Because Fassel is an unemployed moron, in fairness. He was awful as Baltimore's OC for two seasons after leaving the Giants.

And Parcell's actually gave playcalling duties to Payton when he was here in his 2nd or 3rd season, which was a big deal as that was not something Parcells has typically entrusted in his OCs through his career.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

The next Sean Payton is such a poor offensive coordinator at times that people think think that he needs quality control. Are you sure JFE wrote this article and not one of the homers here?:laugh2:

(For the record: I thought Garrett showed progress as a coordinator this year.)

I wish you would "think think" before you post.

 

[Hostile]

That's why I said all three times (NY, Dallas, NO).

The Giants offense improved significantly under Payton. They were consistently in the 20s in terms of yards and scoring in the years before he took over as coordinator, but improved year over year during his tenure.

Saying that Garrett's 3 years in Dallas have yielded better offensive results than Payton's best 3 years is basically meaningless. You can't look at absolute results and claim that one did a better job. The bottom line is that Payton's offenses improved after he took over. And Garrett's offense regressed in some areas after he took over. That may be coincidence and due to factors outside of each man's influence, but those are the facts that we do know, so it seems impossible for anyone to suggest that Garrett is better at this point in his career than Payton.

Cool, I can do the impossible. Never would have known.

 

[theogt]

Cool, I can do the impossible. Never would have known.

Obvious implication being that such a suggestion would be logical. As in, it's a logical impossibility.