Gospel of Judas

[Hoov]

Anyone see the national geographic presentation of the Gospel of Judas last night, pretty fascinating.

Read about it in the papers this w/e too. Looks like books are coming out soon.

 

[Zaxor]

no I didn't Hoov can you give a synopsis

 

[Hoov]

Apparently there is an authentic gospel according to Judas that was held by an egyptian collector who did not really know what he had, and he tried to sell it several times but asked so much money he couldnt find a buyer....so people heard about it and after it sat in a safe deposit box in NYC for 16 years, someone bought it for 300,000 and then it was turned over to museum and found to be an authentic manuscript dated around 240-320 AD. Apparently an early father of the church wrote this gospel off as heresy in 180 AD so it is known that a gospel of Judas was circulated in the times of the early christian church.

The gospel of Judas portrays Jesus as being much more jovial than some of the other gospels and actually portrays jesus as more of a mystic, like the gnostics.

Also the main difference is that in this gospel Judas is a hero, one whom Jesus pulls aside and elevated to a higher status than the others and teaches to him the secrets of the kingdom of heaven because he had insight into the parables that jesus spoke above and neyond the other disciples. Anyway, it states that jesus told judas he must betray "the man that clothes me" and that Judas would be cursed by many nations but that he would overcome them all. So that Judas was doing what jesus asked him to even though he didnt want to and even though he knew what the fallout would be.

There's also a lot of quotes attributed to christ that seem to deal alot with understanding the inner man, that the divine spark of god resides within every one of us, that the kingdom of heaven is within and without, and an emphasis on people to truly know themselves, then will you be known.

There's going to be a lot of debate coming up regarding this.

 

[Zaxor]

Apparently there is an authentic gospel according to Judas that was held by an egyptian collector who did not really know what he had, and he tried to sell it several times but asked so much money he couldnt find a buyer....so people heard about it and after it sat in a safe deposit box in NYC for 16 years, someone bought it for 300,000 and then it was turned over to museum and found to be an authentic manuscript dated around 240-320 AD. Apparently an early father of the church wrote this gospel off as heresy in 180 AD so it is known that a gospel of Judas was circulated in the times of the early christian church.

The gospel of Judas portrays Jesus as being much more jovial than some of the other gospels and actually portrays jesus as more of a mystic, like the gnostics.

Also the main difference is that in this gospel Judas is a hero, one whom Jesus pulls aside and elevated to a higher status than the others and teaches to him the secrets of the kingdom of heaven because he had insight into the parables that jesus spoke above and neyond the other disciples. Anyway, it states that jesus told judas he must betray "the man that clothes me" and that Judas would be cursed by many nations but that he would overcome them all. So that Judas was doing what jesus asked him to even though he didnt want to and even though he knew what the fallout would be.

There's also a lot of quotes attributed to christ that seem to deal alot with understanding the inner man, that the divine spark of god resides within every one of us, that the kingdom of heaven is within and without, and an emphasis on people to truly know themselves, then will you be known.

There's going to be a lot of debate coming up regarding this.

Wow wished I had seen it

 

[WV Cowboy]

Who do you suppose wrote this book ? Judas' mother ?

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

 

[TruBlueCowboy]

Anyone see the national geographic presentation of the Gospel of Judas last night, pretty fascinating.

Read about it in the papers this w/e too. Looks like books are coming out soon.

Nat'l Geographic Channel had that last night??

Doh!!!

I usually try to TiVo stuff like that but I thought it was only a recent discovery and wouldn't have any documentaries to go with it.

Would have loved to have seen it.

 

[TruBlueCowboy]

For anyone interested, I just checked their website and there will be an encore presentation on Nat'l Geographic Channel this Thursday evening at 9 PM EST.

 

[Hoov]

Who do you suppose wrote this book ? Judas' mother ?

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

Its an actual document like the other 30 some gospels that were used by the early christians.

Its just that the early church fathers decided that only 4 were going to be accepted into the bible and the other ones were determined to be heresy.

But whose to say they choose correctly and why is it that the people were not allowed to have access to the different writings in order to discern for themselves which writings were most helpful in spiritual learning.

The information in the gospel of judas is much more in alignment with gnostic teachings then the gospels that were cannonized. I beleive the gospel of thomas is also very close to gnostic teachings.

Its a matter of personal preference i assume, but the document that is titled the gospel of judas does contain many quotes attributed to jesus, and it seems to have a lot of conversations between jesus and the disciples. And a lot of the statements do seem to be in line with what jesus was said to have taught.

The reality is none of us were there at the time so we dont know exactly what occured, we just have written accounts from various authors, and even the 4 gospels in the bible differ in various respects. A Harmony of the gospels is a tool that most pastors have in their library as a quick reference to compare and contrast similarities and contradictions among the 4 gospels. It can be quite technical, but most people would be suprised to see how many subtle differences there are in the 4 gospels.

 

[TruBlueCowboy]

Its an actual document like the other 30 some gospels that were used by the early christians.

Its just that the early church fathers decided that only 4 were going to be accepted into the bible and the other ones were determined to be heresy.

But whose to say they choose correctly and why is it that the people were not allowed to have access to the different writings in order to discern for themselves which writings were most helpful in spiritual learning.

The information in the gospel of judas is much more in alignment with gnostic teachings then the gospels that were cannonized. I beleive the gospel of thomas is also very close to gnostic teachings.

Its a matter of personal preference i assume, but the document that is titled the gospel of judas does contain many quotes attributed to jesus, and it seems to have a lot of conversations between jesus and the disciples. And a lot of the statements do seem to be in line with what jesus was said to have taught.

The reality is none of us were there at the time so we dont know exactly what occured, we just have written accounts from various authors, and even the 4 gospels in the bible differ in various respects. A Harmony of the gospels is a tool that most pastors have in their library as a quick reference to compare and contrast similarities and contradictions among the 4 gospels. It can be quite technical, but most people would be suprised to see how many subtle differences there are in the 4 gospels.

Right now, I'm sloooooowly trying to read through The New Interpreter's Study Bible. Has a lot of great info about the different translations, which priests wrote each gospel, events that are misinterpreted because they are not read in their historical frame of reference, things that have changed through history and other fascinating tidbits. Not to open up a can of worms here, but it really is hard to take the Bible literally, and I don't see how any modern-day religions can. I really feel like you've got to have a few doctorate degrees, know several languages, and also studied all the pieces they've found since the King James was published, before you can really understand Christianity. As a simple example, I would use Revelations. Preachers have scared their congregation, followers have made millions off of famous fictional series dealing with the events, but most historians believe it was only a criticism of the Roman Empire but heavy in metaphors since the writers would have been executed at the time if they had come out with real names and places.

 

[joseephuss]

Who do you suppose wrote this book ? Judas' mother ?

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

Good advice. You could also say don't believe everything you read in the bible.

 

[Hoov]

Right now, I'm sloooooowly trying to read through The New Interpreter's Study Bible. Has a lot of great info about the different translations, which priests wrote each gospel, events that are misinterpreted because they are not read in their historical frame of reference, things that have changed through history and other fascinating tidbits. Not to open up a can of worms here, but it really is hard to take the Bible literally, and I don't see how any modern-day religions can. I really feel like you've got to have a few doctorate degrees, know several languages, and also studied all the pieces they've found since the King James was published, before you can really understand Christianity. As a simple example, I would use Revelations. Preachers have scared their congregation, followers have made millions off of famous fictional series dealing with the events, but most historians believe it was only a criticism of the Roman Empire but heavy in metaphors since the writers would have been executed at the time if they had come out with real names and places.

I used to think - why did jesus speak so much in parables and riddles if the message was so important. why didnt he just write it all out for us.

Now i think it is because he was talking about spiritual secrets, secrets not in so much as they dont want certain people to know, but more in that even if he told you outright what some of the secrets were, you would not have the frame of reference to understand because jesus was operating "on a different level" so to speak.

And so, you could get the jist of what he was saying only if you had had some kind of mind opening experience so that when he spoke, something would click and intuitively you would see the point he was trying to convey. Then you would know too, but when you tried to put that intuition into words, it would be so difficult and poeple would look at you like you wre nuts.

That's why he said "do not cast your pearls before swine". If you have ever tried to convey a deeply spiritual experience you have had to someone who is closeminded about the subject, you will get shunned and they will look at you as if you are weird or as if you are evil or misled by the devil or something. then you quickly wish you had not shared that with them. But soon you run into someone who has had a similar experience and so it validates what you know, still you can't just share such things with anyone.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I always thought Judas got a bad rap. Jesus Christ Superstar tells the story of a sympathetic Judas, maybe it wasn't as avant garde as we thought

The problem is that if Judas did only what he was told to do, then he had no free will and part of the story of the "betrayal" is that Judas did what he did of his own free will. Without free will, then we cannot blame Judas for anything.

Maybe starting in a couple of years, Judas will be the most popular boy's name amongst Christians because he did what he did in service of the Lord

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Gee, I wonder why it was considered heresy? Maybe because it is in direct conflict with the entire Bible?

Judas could not have written this book first of all, second the Book of Acts Chapter 1:14 tells us that the deciples would have to be ones who wittnessed Jesus' Birth through resurection and assention.

Also, the betrayal is a intrigal portion of the story of Jesus. The betrayal of the Savior was prophesy fulfilled. Had Jesus "aksed" him to do this, then it would be obedience and not betrayal. So therefore it is heresey.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Gee, I wonder why it was considered heresy? Maybe because it is in direct conflict with the entire Bible?

Judas could not have written this book first of all, second the Book of Acts Chapter 1:14 tells us that the deciples would have to be ones who wittnessed Jesus' Birth through resurection and assention.

Also, the betrayal is a intrigal portion of the story of Jesus. The betrayal of the Savior was prophesy fulfilled. Had Jesus "aksed" him to do this, then it would be obedience and not betrayal. So therefore it is heresey.

...the Dead Sea Scrolls and the other "gospels" give an interesting look into the times and disorder of the early Christians.

They make up a part of the history and interpretation of the people.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

...the Dead Sea Scrolls and the other "gospels" give an interesting look into the times and disorder of the early Christians.

They make up a part of the history and interpretation of the people.

But when they are in complete disagreement with the old tesement and the new testement, then they are worthless as far any kind of spiritual purpose. As is this writting attributed to Judas, who by the way hung himself, so that would have been a neat trick for him to do.

 

[MapleLeaf]

But when they are in complete disagreement with the old tesement and the new testement, then they are worthless as far any kind of spiritual purpose. As is this writting attributed to Judas, who by the way hung himself, so that would have been a neat trick for him to do.

...I agree. I take historical writings with a different view. I think if we look at these gospels not from a perspective of truth, but rather in the context of the times and the writers it becomes much more interesting and less stressful.

I've had the chance to read a few, most specifically Esther, and there are some chronological problems as you have pointed out, but it doesn't take away from their human interest in my view.

 

[joseephuss]

Gee, I wonder why it was considered heresy? Maybe because it is in direct conflict with the entire Bible?

Judas could not have written this book first of all, second the Book of Acts Chapter 1:14 tells us that the deciples would have to be ones who wittnessed Jesus' Birth through resurection and assention.

Also, the betrayal is a intrigal portion of the story of Jesus. The betrayal of the Savior was prophesy fulfilled. Had Jesus "aksed" him to do this, then it would be obedience and not betrayal. So therefore it is heresey.

Judas was at one time a disciple of Jesus. John and Mark were not disciples of Jesus. They never knew Jesus. They were related to others that knew Jesus. Their gospels are re-telling of stories they heard, not events they actually witnessed. In some ways, Matthew's version corrects some of what Mark says.

There were many "gospels" of Jesus in the early part of christianity. Several were written before Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote theirs. Those were the only ones that were chosen to be put together and added to the bible. Those decisions were not made by any man that was a disciple of Jesus.

I don't think you have to had this information about Judas to the bible or believe it. I just don't see a reason to believe the entire bible. Lots of conflicting information. It is full of good stuff as a guide for life, but is also filled with things that don't apply.

 

[WV Cowboy]

I used to think - why did jesus speak so much in parables and riddles if the message was so important. why didnt he just write it all out for us.

Now i think it is because he was talking about spiritual secrets, secrets not in so much as they dont want certain people to know, but more in that even if he told you outright what some of the secrets were, you would not have the frame of reference to understand because jesus was operating "on a different level" so to speak.

And so, you could get the jist of what he was saying only if you had had some kind of mind opening experience so that when he spoke, something would click and intuitively you would see the point he was trying to convey. Then you would know too, but when you tried to put that intuition into words, it would be so difficult and poeple would look at you like you wre nuts.

That's why he said "do not cast your pearls before swine". If you have ever tried to convey a deeply spiritual experience you have had to someone who is closeminded about the subject, you will get shunned and they will look at you as if you are weird or as if you are evil or misled by the devil or something. then you quickly wish you had not shared that with them. But soon you run into someone who has had a similar experience and so it validates what you know, still you can't just share such things with anyone.

Good post, from what I have read and from what I have been taught, that is why Jesus spoke in parables.

He was speaking from a spiritual perspective. (eat of my flesh, drink of my blood, ... give up your life, you save it, cling to it, and you will lose it.)

Spiritual, not physical.

The mind opening experience that you speak of was more of a heart opening experience, of believing He is the Son of God, Savior of the world, ... still is a heart thing today.

I think towards the end of his life he didn't speak in parables and when he was with the disciples at the end he spoke more directly

 

[WV Cowboy]

Good advice. You could also say don't believe everything you read in the bible.

Why does not believing TV, and not believing the Bible not balance out intellectually to me?

TV is trash. NY and Hollywood run TV and they are the cesspool of America.

The Bible tells us that all scripture is God breathed, so I do believe the Bible is literal.

TV on the other hand is not.

I will always trust the Bible over TV, thank you.

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." - Joshua 24:15

 

[Hoov]

But when they are in complete disagreement with the old tesement and the new testement, then they are worthless as far any kind of spiritual purpose. As is this writting attributed to Judas, who by the way hung himself, so that would have been a neat trick for him to do.

No one said the document was originally written by Judas. In the early days a lot was oral tradition. I imagine that there were a lot of papers written by those who were trying to record events happening around christ and the disciples. But i doubt jesus sat and gave interviews, so you have many many fragments written here and there capturing a little of what was said or what happened on a particular day.

Then after christs death people who were hungry for knowledge met and would take whatever thay could get, very few people would have had actual documents, so some groups would likely have some information written by one source....and another group of people meeting in another town would have some other fragments to study from.

It is clear from studying any of the 4 gospels in the bible that they are actually fragments peiced together, they do not flow in a linear fashion. The gospel of mark was not written by someone who followed jesus around and penned everything that happened, it was compiled at a later time from what little information was there. I mean, there really is very little information available given that jesus ministry was 3 years or so and given the type of influemce he is beleived to have had among the people. There should be so much more available to read about his life and ministry, we only hace a very small fraction, so when another document appears we should be thankful that it may give us more insight into his life.