Got stats or tape on the drops?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Again, "drops" are what we are talking about, and you are going outside that context. Nobody is saying that every pass a that is considered a "drop" dis an ideally placed pace, and everyone understands that receivers sometimes have to adjust to passes. But the percentage of throws that are ideally placed would be an entirely different line of discussion. This one only relates to passes that should have been caught that weren't.

No that is what you've decided to morph the conversation into.

What you were doing before was insisting on two categories that were mutually exclusive. I took issue with that exclusivity, a drop can still be a bad pass, and now you've tried to take me down this rabbithole.

Pass.

 

[OmerV]

No that is what you've decided to morph the conversation into.

What you were doing before was insisting on two categories that were mutually exclusive. I took issue with that exclusivity, a drop can still be a bad pass, and now you've tried to take me down this rabbithole.

Pass.

The thread was literally created to discuss drops. That is the foundation of the whole thing. I didn't morph anything. And even though you refuse to admit it, "drops" are its own category. The "drops" statistic does not attempt to factor in whether the throw was ideal - it deals only with passes that should reasonably be expected to be caught and weren't. That's what the statistic is based on, and that is entirely different than passes that are far enough off target that they are not reasonably expected to be caught.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The thread was literally created to discuss drops. That is the foundation of the whole thing. I didn't morph anything. And even though you refuse to admit it, "drops" are its own category. The "drops" statistic does not attempt to factor in whether the throw was ideal - it deals only with passes that should reasonably be expected to be caught and weren't. That's what the statistic is based on, and that is entirely different than passes that are far enough off target that they are not reasonably expected to be caught.

I think you need to reread the OP.

As it is now for many stats drops are subtracted from a QBs attempts. That is not justified by reality.

Reality also bears that the more a receiver has to reach high, low, backwards, or diving out front, the more drops they are going to have. IOW, an inaccurate QB will increase the number of drops his receivers have.

 

[OmerV]

I think you need to reread the OP.

As it is now for many stats drops are subtracted from a QBs attempts. That is not justified by reality.

Reality also bears that the more a receiver has to reach high, low, backwards, or diving out front, the more drops they are going to have. IOW, an inaccurate QB will increase the number of drops his receivers have.

Of course the more a receiver has to reach or dive the more drops they will have, but I have very clearly, and repeatedly said that if a throw is far enough away that it would require extraordinary effort, it should not be counted as a drop. You are either completely ignoring when I post that, or you think that any time a receiver has to reach or make an adjustment at all he should not be credited with a drop.

 

[Roadtrip635]

I think you need to reread the OP.

As it is now for many stats drops are subtracted from a QBs attempts. That is not justified by reality.

Reality also bears that the more a receiver has to reach high, low, backwards, or diving out front, the more drops they are going to have. IOW, an inaccurate QB will increase the number of drops his receivers have.

Not every "dropped pass" is considered a drop. The gif of Cooper in this thread should have been caught and he dropped it, but wouldn't be considered a "drop". It was a good pass and would be a reasonably tougher catch but just be considered an incomplete pass. Drops are usually of the clear and evident variety like Pollard's. What fans believe should have been caught versus what is counted as a drop are usually very different and drop rates would be much higher through the fans perception.

"Dropped passes are calculated somewhat subjectively but in general are passes that end up being incomplete but should have been easily caught by the receiver under normal circumstances. Typically, these are the clear misses such as when a receiver is wide open and the ball is caught in his hands but he is unable to maintain control."
https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/drop-percentage.aspx

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Not every "dropped pass" is considered a drop. The gif of Cooper in this thread should have been caught and he dropped it, but wouldn't be considered a "drop". It was a good pass and would be a reasonably tougher catch but just be considered an incomplete pass. Drops are usually of the clear and evident variety like Pollard's. What fans believe should have been caught versus what is counted as a drop are usually very different and drop rates would be much higher through the fans perception.

"Dropped passes are calculated somewhat subjectively but in general are passes that end up being incomplete but should have been easily caught by the receiver under normal circumstances. Typically, these are the clear misses such as when a receiver is wide open and the ball is caught in his hands but he is unable to maintain control."
https://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/drop-percentage.aspx

I get that. What I am talking about is stuff like:

PFF’s adjusted completion percentage metric is a better way of looking at a quarterback’s overall accuracy at it’s baseline. While our quarterback analysts are diving into actual accuracy by ball location, route type, depth of target and other factors, adjusted completion percentage is gleaned from our initial data collection of every game. Adjusted completion percentage takes into account factors outside of the quarterback’s control in terms of completing passes. It accounts for dropped passes, passes thrown away, spiked balls, passes batted at the line of scrimmage and those passes in which a quarterback was hit as he threw.

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-signature-statistics-a-glossary

IOW, all these advanced stats showing how accurate Prescott is are giving him for bad passes that are dropped.

 

[Beaker42]

Bethea had no problems. *Ducks*

 

[Roadtrip635]

I get that. What I am talking about is stuff like:



https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-signature-statistics-a-glossary

IOW, all these advanced stats showing how accurate Prescott is are giving him for bad passes that are dropped.

There isn't a pass being given to Dak, the same criteria for Dak is being used for all the other QBs.

 

[buybuydandavis]

note, Asutin, Gallup, Smith, Wilson, and Pollard, arrived with reputations for great hands,
Amari ... well, take the good and the bad,

I didn't think anyone but Wilson was considered to have great hands. Pollard and Smith hands were specifically criticized in their combine profiles.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There isn't a pass being given to Dak, the same criteria for Dak is being used for all the other QBs.

Who said anything about Dak in particular here? Drops should not be automatically discarded for any QB.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

I did not say if the receiver gets his hands on it it's a drop, I said if he can get both hands on it without having to make an extraordinary effort to do so, it's a drop. I have clearly throughout this thread excluded passes that required the receiver to dive or dramatically contort his body or where momentum was too great to slow or turn enough to get a good chance to catch the ball. You just choose to ignore that part of what I am saying because it doesn't fit with your narrative.

“Drops are drops, not bad throws. The QB is responsible for bad throws, but if it is a drop, it's on the receiver, not the QB.” —OmerV

Those are your words from Post #3 of this thread, and it’s just as oversimplified and elementary as I described it.

 

[Roadtrip635]

Who said anything about Dak in particular here? Drops should not be automatically discarded for any QB.

You did in your post ......

all these advanced stats showing how accurate Prescott is are giving him for bad passes that are dropped.