Greg Ellis is a better player than he even knows!

[Bleed Blue]

I know alot of things have happened since the draft. Who knew Kevin Burnett would finally get health, Ellis would make the move to OLB and stick or "Old Al" would come back strong. It's so tough that 1st round pick Bobby Carpenter has not even seen the field yet! Greg Ellis is a player to go to a new position and start over 1st rounder Carpenter and 2nd rounder Burnett. Experience can only get you so far when it's a position you have never played. Or that's a least the reason they say Carprnter is not starting because of the move to his unnatural position at ILB. So is Ellis a better player than you thopught a month ago?

 

[ddh33]

I think that's the point exactly. Greg Ellis is better than he thinks. It's actually kind of annoying. If he would trust himself and this coaching staff, we could have done without a lot of the crying this offseason.

 

[Stautner]

I know alot of things have happened since the draft. Who knew Kevin Burnett would finally get health, Ellis would make the move to OLB and stick or "Old Al" would come back strong. It's so tough that 1st round pick Bobby Carpenter has not even seen the field yet! Greg Ellis is a player to go to a new position and start over 1st rounder Carpenter and 2nd rounder Burnett. Experience can only get you so far when it's a position you have never played. Or that's a least the reason they say Carprnter is not starting because of the move to his unnatural position at ILB. So is Ellis a better player than you thopught a month ago?

Carpenter did play a little ILB in college, so it isn't completely foreign to him, and it's probably less foreign than moving to OLB from DE is for Ellis.

As for Bunett - let's hold our breath for a while before saying he finally got his health.

I'm still not convinced on Ellis yet though. As a pass rusher I believe he will have no problems at OLB, and may well find more success than he did at DE, but the differing looks and reads and the necessary speed in the running game and dropping back in coverage may still prove to be a problem.

 

[Dale]

Speaking of Burnett, that really was a great pass deflection he made. Very athletic, indeed.

 

[Doomsday101]

Carpenter did play a little ILB in college, so it isn't completely foreign to him, and it's probably less foreign than moving to OLB from DE is for Ellis.

As for Bunett - let's hold our breath for a while before saying he finally got his health.

I'm still not convinced on Ellis yet though. As a pass rusher I believe he will have no problems at OLB, and may well find more success than he did at DE, but the differing looks and reads and the necessary speed in the running game and dropping back in coverage may still prove to be a problem.

I don't know I have always felt Ellis had great agility and quickness. As for coverage I think his quickness will allow him to cover guys in the flats. I don't think they will expect Ellis to cover deep down field but then most LB in one on one situation deep down the middle aginst a TE or RB will get beat without help.

 

[Crown Royal]

Speaking of Burnett, that really was a great pass deflection he made. Very athletic, indeed.

Burnett will be a starter and possible ProBowler for someone in this league.

Hopefully us.

 

[ddh33]

Burnett somehow needs to get on the field more.

 

[Stautner]

I don't know I have always felt Ellis had great agility and quickness. As for coverage I think his quickness will allow him to cover guys in the flats. I don't think they will expect Ellis to cover deep down field but then most LB in one on one situation deep down the middle aginst a TE or RB will get beat without help.

Ellis does have great agility and quickness - for a DE.

LB is a different animal where some guys run 4.5's and 4.6's. Besides, it's not just the agility and quickness that worry me, its the recognition and experience factors - some of the experience and knowlege and understanding that Ellis has gained over the years is going to be negated by playing a new position. He's just not experienced at recognizing and reading plays from OLB or reacting to a lot of those plays.

 

[Doomsday101]

Ellis does have great agility and quickness - for a DE.

LB is a different animal where some guys run 4.5's and 4.6's. Besides, it's not just the agility and quickness that worry me, its the recognition and experience factors - some of the experience and knowlege and understanding that Ellis has gained over the years is going to be negated by playing a new position. He's just not experienced at recognizing and reading plays from OLB or reacting to a lot of those plays.

Experiance comes with doing it and thus far in pre-season and the last game he has not hurt the team. I think Ellis will continue to learn and I think he has the physical ability to play the position.

 

[Stautner]

Experiance comes with doing it and thus far in pre-season and the last game he has not hurt the team. I think Ellis will continue to learn and I think he has the physical ability to play the position.

I'm not saying he wont - I'm just saying I'm not yet convinced. Time will tell and I hope you are right.

 

[Doomsday101]

I'm not saying he wont - I'm just saying I'm not yet convinced. Time will tell and I hope you are right.

I understand but at least it appears Ellis is a little more convinced now that he can do the job. That is a big step

 

[Stautner]

I understand but at least it appears Ellis is a little more convinced now that he can do the job. That is a big step

Absolutely - it's a huge step.

I actually believe he can do the job, but I think dropping back in coverage and handling outside running plays will always be a little struggle for him - i doubt he will ever be more than average in those areas. Rushing the passer, on the other hand, should be a big strong suit.

 

[Rush 2112]

Ellis does have great agility and quickness - for a DE.

LB is a different animal where some guys run 4.5's and 4.6's. Besides, it's not just the agility and quickness that worry me, its the recognition and experience factors - some of the experience and knowlege and understanding that Ellis has gained over the years is going to be negated by playing a new position. He's just not experienced at recognizing and reading plays from OLB or reacting to a lot of those plays.

He basically has slid over a foot to the left and is now standing up.

Recognition vs run is the same except he has a better vantage point and is not lined up directly over the OT.

 

[Stautner]

He basically has slid over a foot to the left and is now standing up.

Recognition vs run is the same except he has a better vantage point and is not lined up directly over the OT.

You are ignoring the fact that he now has a wider coverage area. As a DE end he was responsible for the point of attack - any range much outside of that was gravy and bled into the LB and DB's territory. He basically wasn't expected to stop the run to the outside, though ocassionally he did. As a LB he is responsible for the run to the outside, as well as to the inside. It takes a lot more quickness and earlier recognition because he has a much bigger area of responsibility and has to take proper angles.

As for recognition - it's not just the run, its the pass coverage. He essentially didn't worry about that as a DE. At LB he has to decide whether to attack the passer or drop back in coverage. If coverage is decided, who his man is and what the route is - all the while hoping to be in position to defend the pass if it is thrown his way.

To suggest that OLB and DE are almost the same in responsibilities and recognition and necessary skills and quickness is ridiculous.

 

[Rush 2112]

You are ignoring the fact that he now has a wider coverage area. As a DE end he was responsible for the point of attack - any range much outside of that was gravy and bled into the LB and DB's territory. He basically wasn't expected to stop the run to the outside, though ocassionally he did. As a LB he is responsible for the run to the outside, as well as to the inside. It takes a lot more quickness and earlier recognition because he has a much bigger area of responsibility and has to take proper angles.

As for recognition - it's not just the run, its the pass coverage. He essentially didn't worry about that as a DE. At LB he has to decide whether to attack the passer or drop back in coverage. If coverage is decided, who his man is and what the route is - all the while hoping to be in position to defend the pass if it is thrown his way.

To suggest that OLB and DE are almost the same in responsibilities and recognition and necessary skills and quickness is ridiculous.

I never mentioned quickness so I couldn't suggest it.

That responsibilities vs the run are essentially the same as per BP and anyone who understands how to watch the game.

You make it sound like the SDE's job in a 4-3 requires no outside contain, etc vs run and Al S and Newman were cleaning up everything for Ellis outside. Utterly rediculous. Ellis has been know as being very, very good vs run throughout his career.

"He basically wasn't expected to stop the run to the outside"

Pure brilliance.

Link

 

[Juljonesfan]

Rush2111

Pure genius drafting 233 pound Burnett early in 2nd and then Carpenter at #18 to sit on Sundays?

Yet we had Greg Ellis and Al Singleton all along. Why?
Chicken / egg?

 

[2much2soon]

Speaking of Burnett, that really was a great pass deflection he made. Very athletic, indeed.

Yea, when it first happened I was wondering who made the play. I was pretty happy to hear it was Burnett.
Does he look like a 230 pounder to you? He certainly moved like one on that play.

 

[Rush 2112]

Rush2111

Pure genius drafting 233 pound Burnett early in 2nd and then Carpenter at #18 to sit on Sundays?

Yet we had Greg Ellis and Al Singleton all along. Why?
Chicken / egg?

Ask Nors :laugh2:

Shouldn't be hard for you to find him.

 

[Stautner]

I never mentioned quickness so I couldn't suggest it.

That responsibilities vs the run are essentially the same as per BP and anyone who understands how to watch the game.

You make it sound like the SDE's job in a 4-3 requires no outside contain, etc vs run and Al S and Newman were cleaning up everything for Ellis outside. Utterly rediculous. Ellis has been know as being very, very good vs run throughout his career.

"He basically wasn't expected to stop the run to the outside"

Pure brilliance.

Link

You are overexxagerating your point. Of course the DE is responsible for doing whatever he can on any play, but the OLB has to be able to cover MUCH more ground than the DE. When I say the DE isn't "expected" to stop the outside run, I don't mean he isn't responsible for trying or that he isn't able to do it sometimes, but that the primary responsibility falls on the outside defenders - such as the OLB.

That's not only common sense, but basic for anyone who "knows how to watch football".

I know you think you know it all about football - even being so bold as to suggest that playing DE and OLB is essentially identical with identical duties, skills and reads, but just in case you are willing to try and understand more, here's a lesson:

Each layer of the defense has to have more speed, agility and quickness - DB's have to be quicker and faster than LB's and LB's have to be quicker and faster than D-linemen.

A large part of this "quickness" is dependent on how quickly and accurately the LB can make a read, and how quickly he can respond to it - reads and responses regarding both pass coverage and run defense.

The DE is a first wave of defense whose primary responsibility is the point of attack - anything he can do to chase down ball carries beyond that is a bonus.

The LB's are a second wave, and therefore have a much greater responsibility to not allow runners to get around them. They have a much greater responsibility for outside containment than DE's - and have the added burden of being responsible for coverage in some situations.

The DB's have to be able to chase down anyone all over the field - even though they must first stick to a receiver who may have run a pattern 25 yards away from the ball carrier - because they are not only the third wave, they are the final wave. Beyond them there is no one else.

Once again, common sense and basic of you "know how to watch football".

Do you actually deny any of this?

Perhaps you should ask DeMarcus Ware if DE and OLB are identical.

 

[Rush 2112]

You are overexxagerating your point. Of course the DE is responsible for doing whatever he can on any play, but the OLB has to be able to cover MUCH more ground than the DE. When I say the DE isn't "expected" to stop the outside run, I don't mean he isn't responsible for trying or that he isn't able to do it sometimes, but that the primary responsibility falls on the outside defenders - such as the OLB.

That's not only common sense, but basic for anyone who "knows how to watch football".

I know you think you know it all about football - even being so bold as to suggest that playing DE and OLB is essentially identical with identical duties, skills and reads, but just in case you are willing to try and understand more, here's a lesson:

Each layer of the defense has to have more speed, agility and quickness - DB's have to be quicker and faster than LB's and LB's have to be quicker and faster than D-linemen.

A large part of this "quickness" is dependent on how quickly and accurately the LB can make a read, and how quickly he can respond to it - reads and responses regarding both pass coverage and run defense.

The DE is a first wave of defense whose primary responsibility is the point of attack - anything he can do to chase down ball carries beyond that is a bonus.

The LB's are a second wave, and therefore have a much greater responsibility to not allow runners to get around them. They have a much greater responsibility for outside containment than DE's - and have the added burden of being responsible for coverage in some situations.

The DB's have to be able to chase down anyone all over the field - even though they must first stick to a receiver who may have run a pattern 25 yards away from the ball carrier - because they are not only the third wave, they are the final wave. Beyond them there is no one else.

Once again, common sense and basic of you "know how to watch football".

Do you actually deny any of this?

Perhaps you should ask DeMarcus Ware if DE and OLB are identical.

You're arguing with yourself.

Pull words out of the sky that I never used and go on a diatribe with yourself.

Identical = Your word

Learn how to read.

Each layer of the defense has to be quicker/faster than the previous one?

Thanks for clearing that up.

I was wondering if we would start Fergie or Newman at CB this week.

So what you're saying is Ellis/Ware have to be quicker and more agile than Canty/Fergie/Spears?

Cool. I think we have that taken care of.

How many starting 3-4 OLB's in the NFL weren't 4-3 DE's in college?

Don't hurt yourself on that one.