Greg Ellis is a better player than he even knows!

[Stautner]

You're arguing with yourself.

Pull words out of the sky that I never used and go on a diatribe with yourself.

Identical = Your word

Learn how to read.

Each layer of the defense has to be quicker/faster than the previous one?

Thanks for clearing that up.

I was wondering if we would start Fergie or Newman at CB this week.

So what you're saying is Ellis/Ware have to be quicker and more agile than Canty/Fergie/Spears?

Cool. I think we have that taken care of.

How many starting 3-4 OLB's in the NFL weren't 4-3 DE's in college?

Don't hurt yourself on that one.

"Essentially the same ..... Identical ..... I would say the meaning is "essentially the same" ......

OLB's cover TE's downfield at times - drop back in coverage - protect the flats, have to beat speedy running backs to the sideline ...... you really think the DE's responsiblities are "essentially the same" ("i'll be careful not to use the word "identical"). When I see Marcus Spears consistently covering TE's and chasing down receivers and RB's on the sidelines 10 yards downfield we can talk.

As for college DE's that become NFL LB's, sure it happens a lot ...... with 240-255 pound college DE's who are brought into the NFL specifically to play OLB and who start their NFL careers in that capacity.

How many 270 pound players who have played DE in the NFL for 9 years make the switch?

Don't hurt yourself on that one .......

 

[Rush 2112]

"Essentially the same ..... Identical ..... I would say the meaning is "essentially the same" ......

OLB's cover TE's downfield at times - drop back in coverage - protect the flats, have to beat speedy running backs to the sideline ...... you really think the DE's responsiblities are "essentially the same" ("i'll be careful not to use the word "identical"). When I see Marcus Spears consistently covering TE's and chasing down receivers and RB's on the sidelines 10 yards downfield we can talk.

As for college DE's that become NFL LB's, sure it happens a lot ...... with 240-255 pound college DE's who are brought into the NFL specifically to play OLB and who start their NFL careers in that capacity.

How many 270 pound players who have played DE in the NFL for 9 years make the switch?

Don't hurt yourself on that one .......

If you're going to bring a 3-4 DE like Spears into a 3-4 OLB conversation make sure to include Canty, Hatcher, Ratliff, and Kenyon.

When I said "vs run" did that register anything in your head or not?

Thanks for clearing up the coverage responsibilities of a OLB for the board. Lots of new and useful information there.

And the college DE to 3-4 OLB doesn't "happen a lot".

It happens every single time.

There isn't one who wasn't a 4-3 DE in college, except Merriman who played both.

To answer your last question............

Greg Ellis.

 

[Stautner]

If you're going to bring a 3-4 DE like Spears into a 3-4 OLB conversation make sure to include Canty, Hatcher, Ratliff, and Kenyon.

When I said "vs run" did that register anything in your head or not?

Thanks for clearing up the coverage responsibilities of a OLB for the board. Lots of new and useful information there.

And the college DE to 3-4 OLB doesn't "happen a lot".

It happens every single time.

There isn't one who wasn't a 4-3 DE in college, except Merriman who played both.

To answer your last question............

Greg Ellis.

WE were talking about responsibilities of OLB vs. DE's - not just against the run - and even so, the OLB clearly does have responsibility for a bigger part of the field than the DE. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

And what do you mean by "the college DE to 3-4 OLB doesn't "happen a lot". It happens every single time.

Are you trying to say that EVERY SINGLE COLLEGE DE became a 3-4 OLB in the NFL, or are you trying to say that EVERY SINGLE 3-4 LB in the NFL was a college DE ....... hell, either way makes no sense - we have some OLB's on the Cowboys that weren't DE's in college.

And you ignored my response anyway - conveniently. So here it is again - maybe you'll try to tackle it this time .......

How many 270 pound players that have been DE's in the NFL for 9 years have converted to OLB ...... ?

 

[Rush 2112]

How many starting 3-4 OLB's in the NFL weren't 4-3 DE's in college?

To answer your last question............

Greg Ellis.

Are you really that stupid?

What did you think I meant by "To answer your last question"?

Reading is fundamental.

Perhaps your ancestors should have married outside the family.

 

[Stautner]

Are you really that stupid?

What did you think I meant by "To answer your last question"?

Reading is fundamental.

Perhaps your ancestors should have married outside the family.

You think you answered my question by only being able to name the guy who is the topic of this discussion .......? Out of the ALL those DE's you talk about that converted to 3-4 OLB (EVERY SINGLE DE according to you) Greg Ellis is the only example of Greg Ellis you could come up with?

It's like asking someone to name all of the adhesives in the world that work in a manner similar to glue, and your answer is "glue".

How's that for stupid?

My challenge to you was to name out of ALL those that made the conversion, the ones that were long time NFL veteran DE's that weigh 270 ......

You failed the challenge buddy - you created a list with one name (by definition not actually a list at all) - in other words, you punted.

 

[Bleed Blue]

:laugh1:

 

[Clove]

No doubt in my mind Ellis is doing a great job at the OLB position, but now my concern is his pass rushing. He generates pressure, but not consistantly. Maybe Hatcher can come in on some (not all) but some nickel sets and take one of the end spots.

 

[Stautner]

No doubt in my mind Ellis is doing a great job at the OLB position, but now my concern is his pass rushing. He generates pressure, but not consistantly. Maybe Hatcher can come in on some (not all) but some nickel sets and take one of the end spots.

I'm not worried about the pass rushing - I think that will come. It's only been one week, and Ellis never was a dominant pass rusher that got sacks every week anyway. If we are sitting here in week 3 or 4 and talking about Ellis not getting sacks then we have a problem.

The pass rushing is really the part of the game that should be most natural to Ellis - it is the aspect of OLB that is most like what he did as a DE. The pass coverage and wider range of run stopping responsibilities is going to be the bigger adjustment.

 

[Rush 2112]

Are you really that stupid - you think you answered my question by only being able to name the guy who is the topic of this discussion .......

You were the one that claimed so many examples of DE's who had made the conversion to 3-4 OLB (EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE according to you) ........ but you can't name a single example in Ellis' circumstance except Ellis himself - and even so, the jury is still out as to how successful Ellis will be.

My challenge to you was to name out of ALL those that made the conversion, the ones that were long time NFL veteran DE's that weigh 270 ......

You failed the challenge buddy - you created a list with one name (by definition not actually a list) - in other words, you punted.

What does time in the league and weight have to do with anything?

Either you can get it done or you can't.

Name one 3-4 OLB that wasn't a 4-3 DE in college.......still?

How much do McGinest, Merriman, and Steve Foley weigh?

Vrabel, Phillips, Ware?

All 255-270.

 

[DLCassidy]

Carpenter was drafted to play SOLB here. Only because of the emergence of Ellis was he moved inside. He was a LB in college. So there's one.

 

[superpunk]

Carpenter was drafted to play SOLB here. Only because of the emergence of Ellis was he moved inside. He was a LB in college. So there's one.

Wasn't Singleton a OLB at Temple?

Burnett is our backup for Ware.

 

[Rush 2112]

Carpenter was drafted to play SOLB here. Only because of the emergence of Ellis was he moved inside. He was a LB in college. So there's one.

Not talking about hypothetical, on paper, 5 days of practice and zero games.

As far as I'm concerned BP is stupid like a fox and prefered Ellis (6-6/270, proven pass rusher) at SOLB all along vs 6-3/257 BC 4-3 college SOLB.

BP has zero chance of convincing the whiner to play OLB last year.

This year Ellis wasn't given a choice.

"He can play it or retire. Those are his two options."

 

[DLCassidy]

Brandon Moore starts at SOLB for SF. He was a LB for OU in college.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

How many starting 3-4 OLB's in the NFL weren't 4-3 DE's in college?

not many, and which is a very good point for your argument

 

[Rush 2112]

Wasn't Singleton a OLB at Temple?

Burnett is our backup for Ware.

STARTING!!!!!

Not guys who suck or do it for 1 season out of desperation.

Singleton, Burnett......backups.

Moore = scrub.

How many 3-4 teams are looking for guys like them as starters on the outside?

Probably SF.

 

[DLCassidy]

Not talking about hypothetical, on paper, 5 days of practice and zero games.

As far as I'm concerned BP is stupid like a fox and prefered Ellis (6-6/270, proven pass rusher) at SOLB all along vs 6-3/257 BC 4-3 college SOLB.

BP has zero chance of convincing the whiner to play OLB last year.

This year Ellis wasn't given a choice.

"He can play it or retire. Those are his two options."

That's not what Parcells said about why they drafted Carpenter. But you seem to know it all so I guess he didn't. If he preferred Ellis you're telling me we'd have spent the 18th pick in the first round for what we expected was going to be a backup ILB? Because we already had a solid Brady James and we already had invested a pretty large contract on Ayodele before the draft. And even if we hadn't mid first is not where you normally draft ILB's.

 

[superpunk]

STARTING!!!!!

Not guys who suck or do it for 1 season out of desperation.

Singleton, Burnett......backups.

Moore = scrub.

How many 3-4 teams are looking for guys like them as starters on the outside?

Probably SF.

Singleton started at OLB for us last year. PLayed pretty well. Moore is a starter, you didn't put any "scrub" provisos in. Matt Stewart starts for CLE. He was a LB at Vanderbilt.

 

[Stautner]

What does time in the league and weight have to do with anything?

Either you can get it done or you can't.

Name one 3-4 OLB that wasn't a 4-3 DE in college.......still?

How much do McGinest, Merriman, and Steve Foley weigh?

Vrabel, Phillips, Ware?

All 255-270.

It really isn't a difficult concept:

Anytime a person has done something over and over for many years it becomes engrained in his mind, and his instincts naturally tell him to think and act as he always has. Especially when that person has had success. On the other hand, a guy fresh out of college is more plyable - more willing to learn and accept change, and has less of a certain mindset engrained into his head.

That's not to say that the older guy CAN'T change, just that it's more difficult.

As for weight, that is simple as well, and surprising that you can't understand. The simple fact is that there are very few successful OLB's that wieigh 270. It's common sense that the bigger you are the more difficult it is to handle a position that requires covering more of the field. Same applies to CB's where it is rare to be successful at 215 lbs - few CB's have the ability to handle the duties of the position at that size.

Again, not to say it can't be done, but it is more difficult and rare.

Now, add the combined burden of being both oversized for the position and having to make a change so late in Ellis' career.

As for the examples you gave - again not apples to apples. All of those guys were groomed very early in the NFL as OLB's, whereas Ellis doesn't have the luxury of learning over time and growing into the position. And all those guys were considered to have LB speed from the get go - some even running a 40 time in the 4.5's. Not to mention most (maybe all) of those guys started out in the 250's added bulk, whereas Ellis has been up to 280+

Besides, who said it was an easy transition for any of those guys .....?

You see, what you've lost in all this is that I've never even said Ellis can't make the conversion successfully - all I've said is that it isn't an easy thing.

As for Ware, he has stated MANY times that making the transition was not and is not easy, and he continues to say today that he has a lot to learn.

 

[Rush 2112]

Singleton started at OLB for us last year. PLayed pretty well. Moore is a starter, you didn't put any "scrub" provisos in. Matt Stewart starts for CLE. He was a LB at Vanderbilt.

I should have put in the L/T solution and scrub provision.

Singleton, Moore, Stewart.

Hold the fort guys until teams can get a bigger/better 3-4 OLB.

Stewart keeping the spot warm for Wimbley.

Singleton did the same for Ellis.

Moore will do the same.

SF doesn't play all that muc 3-4 YET anyways.

Add Fuji and Leber to that 4-3 OLB replaced as 3-4 OLB mix.

Band aids.

 

[Stautner]

STARTING!!!!!

Not guys who suck or do it for 1 season out of desperation.

Singleton, Burnett......backups.

Moore = scrub.

How many 3-4 teams are looking for guys like them as starters on the outside?

Probably SF.

Dude, did you forget ..... you said EVERY 3-4 OLB was a DE (actually you said EVERY DE became a 3-4 OLB, but why worry about what you said?). Not just starters and stars - EVERY ONE. Nevertheless, I'm sure if I were inclined I could find a few solid 3-4 OLB's around the NFL that have always been LB's.

Even so, that's not the point anyway, because while you can give lots of examples of guys fresh off being 245-255 lb. college DE's that were drafted to play 3-4 OLB or converted very early on, it isn't the same as converting a 9 year NFL veteran DE that is 270 lbs and has weighed as much as 280+ at times - AND doesn't have the same kind of speed as Ware, Merriman etc .....

You must think apples and oranges look the same if you can't see the difference.

AND ...... once again, I never said Ellis couldn't do it. In fact, I've said I think he can, but that it will be difficult. All I've been arguing is that it's a tougher switch than with a younger, faster, quicker and less set in his ways player.

Meanwhile you've been arguing that Ellis is in no different situation than guys 10 years younger, 10-15 pounds lighter, 3-4 tenths of a second faster in the 40, and less set in their ways .......

AND that there is no real difference in playing DE and OLB - that the responsibilities are almost identical ..... EXCUSE ME, not identical, but "essentially the same". I'm not sure those former DE's that now play 3-4 OLB would agree while they are chasing TE's and RB's out on pass patterns .......