Guys that get an undeserved bad rap..

[EMMITTnROY]

Y'know, I was talking to my friend the other day about Keyshawn Johnson and the conversation really bummed me out.. I was trying to tell him that I really think that Keyshawn is a good guy, and he wasn't hearing any of it.. Nothing I could tell him could convince him that he wasn't a big loudmouthed, selfish, spoiled, immature jerk.. I thought it was sad because that isn't the Keyshawn Johnson that I have come to know over the past couple of years.. so I started thinking about other guys who have an undeserved bad rap.. Players that maybe had a rocky past and did some stupid things but have grown up, matured, and bettered themselves.. but still carry around that "bad guy' baggage because people hang onto the past and don't believe that they have changed or don't care to see it.. I'm not talking about guys like T.O., Sean Taylor, or Bill Romanowski-- they still haven't proven over a good amount of time that they have changed.. but I came up with a few guys and wanted to see your thoughts and see if you could think of more.. the list is all Cowboys, but that is just because I dont know other team's players as well as I do ours.. Im sure there are plenty more out there from other teams, and I welcome you guys to list them as well.. here are mine:

1. Keyshawn Johnson- Most people view him the same way that my friend does, which is pretty sad. The Keyshawn that I saw the last couple of years was an honest, funny, likable, fire 'em up team leader. I saw him treat the fans very well, and I loved the fact that he gave every home touchdown ball to a disabled kid in the stands. He gives back to his community and is involved in many charities and good organizations. The only time there was an incident in his two years in Dallas was his little spat with Drew Bledsoe, and I still contend that Keyshawn was in the right that day and Bledsoe was in the wrong. But of course, because of his past, every media outlet and fan out there blamed the whole thing on Keyshawn and his immature ways.

2. Deion Sanders- People dislike him and he definately has a bad rap. Why? Because he was flashy and arrogant. Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are arrogant, they just go about it in a different way. And if you ask me, flashy isn't a reason to hate a player. He was fun and he was having fun. And he was always about making the team better and he was a great teammate. His teammates LIKED him and his fun ways, so why did the fans hate it so much? Chad Johnson is the same exact way, but people don't mind it because he makes them laugh so much. But that isn't my biggest problem here. My problem is that AFTER Deion came out and said that he gave his life to God and that he was a changed man, nobody really believed him and kept that flashy, arrogant label on him. But you know what? He really did change. If you watch the Deion before and the Deion after, he is worlds different. People can change, and Deion did. He became a more mature guy and a better person. But people don't see that or give him that chance.

3. Michael Irvin- Michael used to do drugs and was a loud mouth. Michael stopped doing drugs, but he is still a loud mouth. But people hate this guy. He will always have that "druggie" rap. It is so powerful, it has kept him out of the Hall of Fame two years running. Loud mouth? Please. This sport and the media that covers it is FULL of loud mouths. But Michael isn't a loud mouth in a negative, demeaning way. He is a fun, high energy guy that talks loud and talks fast. He doesn't bad mouth other players or coaches. But he will always be a loud mouth jerk and he will always be a druggie. Like Deion, Michael changed. But people don't see that or give him that chance.

 

[Alexander]

3. Michael Irvin- Michael used to do drugs and was a loud mouth. Michael stopped doing drugs, but he is still a loud mouth. But people hate this guy. He will always have that "druggie" rap. It is so powerful, it has kept him out of the Hall of Fame two years running. Loud mouth? Please. This sport and the media that covers it is FULL of loud mouths. But Michael isn't a loud mouth in a negative, demeaning way. He is a fun, high energy guy that talks loud and talks fast. He doesn't bad mouth other players or coaches. But he will always be a loud mouth jerk and he will always be a druggie. Like Deion, Michael changed. But people don't see that or give him that chance.

Like it or not, brash players are going to get branded.

Take Jerry Rice for instance. He supposedly would get just as angry if he didn't get thrown the football as any other loud mouth WR, but since he was humble and soft spoken to the media, he was not seen as that way. Image is very important. And those who weren't very good at self monitoring (and yes, in a way, not smart) like Irvin end up having to deal with the consequences of being outspoken.

 

[riggo]

Nothing I could tell him could convince him that he wasn't a big loudmouthed, selfish, spoiled, immature jerk.. I thought it was sad because that isn't the Keyshawn Johnson that I have come to know over the past couple of years..

interesting that you have both irvin and johnson listed. did you see irvins interview with him last year? keyshawn didnt come off that well, i thought.

 

[EMMITTnROY]

interesting that you have both irvin and johnson listed. did you see irvins interview with him last year? keyshawn didnt come off that well, i thought.

no i didnt see that one.. how did keyshawn not come off that well?

 

[THUMPER]

This is extremely subjective and based solely on opinion. How do YOU define "underserved"? If I don't like a player for some reason then to me it is deserved. If you happen to like a player that I don't then you consider it "undeserved".

It is completely subjective.

I don't like deIon $ander$, never have and never will. He is obnoxious, self-righteous, self-absorbed, and a complete phoney. I have no respect for him as a person based only on my experience with him, which is just from what I have seen and heard from him on TV. I've never met him in person and have no desire to. The less I see or hear from him the better as far as I'm concerned. Yet there are many people who absolutely adore the guy, including many of his former teammates.

Guys who are loud-mouthed, self-promoters generally end up on my list of guys I don't like. That includes Michael Irvin and Terrell Owens as well as several others. I don't care that they wear/wore the Cowboys uniform, I still don't like them.

I didn't like Keyshawn until after he had been with the Boys for a while and had not acted like a jerk. He did his job and kept his mouth shut and I now I like the guy and wish him well with the Panthers.

So is it undeserved? Maybe to you but not to me. IMO they earned their bad rep by the way they act and the things they say.

 

[MossBurner]

3. Michael Irvin- Michael used to do drugs and was a loud mouth. Michael stopped doing drugs, but he is still a loud mouth. But people hate this guy. He will always have that "druggie" rap. It is so powerful, it has kept him out of the Hall of Fame two years running. Loud mouth? Please. This sport and the media that covers it is FULL of loud mouths. But Michael isn't a loud mouth in a negative, demeaning way. He is a fun, high energy guy that talks loud and talks fast. He doesn't bad mouth other players or coaches. But he will always be a loud mouth jerk and he will always be a druggie. Like Deion, Michael changed. But people don't see that or give him that chance.

When did MI stop doing drugs?

 

[superpunk]

Could anyone have convinced you Keyshawn wasn't a bad guy before his first season in Dallas?

Me either.

But now, I love him.

 

[AtlCB]

When did MI stop doing drugs?

I guess at the same time that Taylor stopped pointing guns at other people.

 

[superpunk]

I guess at the same time that Taylor stopped pointing guns at other people.

Nah.

It was WAY before that. Back in that decade and a half where the Skins were irrelevant. Then.

 

[1fisher]

I guess at the same time that Taylor stopped pointing guns at other people.

and stopped spitting on people .......

 

[Screw The Hall]

Like it or not, brash players are going to get branded.

Take Jerry Rice for instance. He supposedly would get just as angry if he didn't get thrown the football as any other loud mouth WR, but since he was humble and soft spoken to the media, he was not seen as that way. Image is very important. And those who weren't very good at self monitoring (and yes, in a way, not smart) like Irvin end up having to deal with the consequences of being outspoken.

The thing is Rice's way wouldn't have worked for Irvin or the Cowboys. The TEAM needed the brash fireyness that was Irvin ... that was the Cowboys.

As far as loud mouth WR's and the media goes, your right. But then Irvin's brand of loud was different than any other's at that position. He was able to channel his brashness so that not only did it not hinder his team, but in fact was the driving force of it.

As talented as Irvin was, that is not what defined him and made him special, his passion did that. So he was just playing the cards he was dealt ... for better or worse.

 

[THUMPER]

I noticed for both deIon and Irvin the comment was made:

But people don't see that or give him that chance.

This isn't Tee-Ball where kids get second and third chances to make up for their mistakes. These are supposed to be adults we are discussing here and adults are responsible for their actions. I don't have to give them any additional chances to impress me.

They had plenty of chances and used them all up in convincing me of their total self-centeredness and lack of maturity. deIon was still an annoying, self-absorbed jerk long after his "conversion". I still remember him costing us a game because instead of counting the players like the punt return guy is supposed to do, he was busy pointing up to the sky, pretending to point to God but really to draw all eyes to himself. We were penalized for having 12 men on the field, the other team got the ball back and scored the winning FG. Did I mention this was AFTER he supposedly gave his life to Christ?

One of the key elements in a Christian's walk is humility and deIon has never shown the least bit of it so I have zero belief in his conversion regardless of what he says. His actions show that it was all a ploy to bring yet more attention to himself.

Keyshawn showed me by his actions and lack of words that he had matured and was capable of behaving himself like an adult. He went about his business and did all the little things that most WRs don't do.

If Owens does the same then my opinion of him will likely change but it will take more than one season for that to happen. For deIon and Michael it is too late for them to do anything to change my opinion about them although I dislike Irvin less now than I did when he was a player.

 

[EMMITTnROY]

This is extremely subjective and based solely on opinion. How do YOU define "underserved"? If I don't like a player for some reason then to me it is deserved. If you happen to like a player that I don't then you consider it "undeserved".

It is completely subjective.

I don't like deIon $ander$, never have and never will. He is obnoxious, self-righteous, self-absorbed, and a complete phoney. I have no respect for him as a person based only on my experience with him, which is just from what I have seen and heard from him on TV. I've never met him in person and have no desire to. The less I see or hear from him the better as far as I'm concerned. Yet there are many people who absolutely adore the guy, including many of his former teammates.

Guys who are loud-mouthed, self-promoters generally end up on my list of guys I don't like. That includes Michael Irvin and Terrell Owens as well as several others. I don't care that they wear/wore the Cowboys uniform, I still don't like them.

I didn't like Keyshawn until after he had been with the Boys for a while and had not acted like a jerk. He did his job and kept his mouth shut and I now I like the guy and wish him well with the Panthers.

So is it undeserved? Maybe to you but not to me. IMO they earned their bad rep by the way they act and the things they say.

almost everything on this board is subjective.. "Best player" lists, "Drew Henson sucks" threads, "Dallas has the best WR corps in the NFL" posts, and on and on.. let's just shut the whole board down, then..

 

[superpunk]

let's just shut the whole board down, then..

How the heck would I waste time at work, then?

I can't do crosswords, I hate mad-libs - what on earth would be left?

 

[thescarface1989]

I thought Randy Moss had Matured, or changed, or thats the way I saw him in that interview about Norv Turner. It's also probley because he is just with a bad team.

 

[THUMPER]

As far as loud mouth WR's and the media goes, your right. But then Irvin's brand of loud was different than any other's at that position. He was able to channel his brashness so that not only did it not hinder his team, but in fact was the driving force of it.

No, it never hindered the team... unless you count the times he was suspended for getting busted. Or the fact that he so tarnished the reputation of the Cowboys that we couldn't take a chance on Randy Moss when we desperately needed a WR.

Please don't try to paint Michael Irvin as some fun-loving kid who let his emotions get out of hand once in a while. The guy had some serious problems that cost him, his family, his teammates, and his team.

 

[Alexander]

I thought Randy Moss had Matured, or changed, or thats the way I saw him in that interview about Norv Turner. It's also probley because he is just with a bad team.

Bad teams and specifically losing make the malcontents come out.

 

[EMMITTnROY]

I noticed for both deIon and Irvin the comment was made:



This isn't Tee-Ball where kids get second and third chances to make up for their mistakes. These are supposed to be adults we are discussing here and adults are responsible for their actions. I don't have to give them any additional chances to impress me.

They had plenty of chances and used them all up in convincing me of their total self-centeredness and lack of maturity. deIon was still an annoying, self-absorbed jerk long after his "conversion". I still remember him costing us a game because instead of counting the players like the punt return guy is supposed to do, he was busy pointing up to the sky, pretending to point to God but really to draw all eyes to himself. We were penalized for having 12 men on the field, the other team got the ball back and scored the winning FG. Did I mention this was AFTER he supposedly gave his life to Christ?

One of the key elements in a Christian's walk is humility and deIon has never shown the least bit of it so I have zero belief in his conversion regardless of what he says. His actions show that it was all a ploy to bring yet more attention to himself.

Keyshawn showed me by his actions and lack of words that he had matured and was capable of behaving himself like an adult. He went about his business and did all the little things that most WRs don't do.

If Owens does the same then my opinion of him will likely change but it will take more than one season for that to happen. For deIon and Michael it is too late for them to do anything to change my opinion about them although I dislike Irvin less now than I did when he was a player.

too late, really? that is harsh man.. what if they showed up at your door with a Hallmark "Forgive Me" card? would you then? and your whole little rant about Deion and pointing to the sky and bla bla bla? purely subjective.. maybe he really was pointing to the sky for inspiration.. and as far as them being adults? dude, let me go back in time and give you a $10 million dollar check, a mansion, keys to a Porsche right as soon as you graduate from college and see how long it takes for YOU to mature.. and then when the lights finally come on and you get it? forget you, man, it's too late.. you can't change, and if you tell me you did, i don't believe you..

 

[riggo]

no i didnt see that one.. how did keyshawn not come off that well?

hard to remember the details. basically, irvin had called him out, so keyshawn to his credit agree to and interview. keyshawn declared himself to be more of a complete WR than irvin (regarding his ability to block), to which irvin responded with a laught, and that he would have better numbers as a cowboy (or just in general, possibly) than irvin. keyshawn came off like he didnt know that irvin was a hell of a WR and just a little too cocky.

i do hear boys fans saying good things about keyshawn though. given that, i'm sure the truth about him isnt as bad as his rep.

 

[Screw The Hall]

No, it never hindered the team... unless you count the times he was suspended for getting busted. Or the fact that he so tarnished the reputation of the Cowboys that we couldn't take a chance on Randy Moss when we desperately needed a WR.

Please don't try to paint Michael Irvin as some fun-loving kid who let his emotions get out of hand once in a while. The guy had some serious problems that cost him, his family, his teammates, and his team.

I'm not painting him as anything other than the fiery leader of 3 super-bowl champion teams that he was.

Real problems ... you bet. That's the thing about REAL passion, sometimes it's like a caged animal that feels almost impossible to control. With Irvin we got the good with the bad. I guess I've always understood this part of Irvin more than most.

As far as him tarnishing the reputation of the Cowboys, he had a whole lot of help with that as I recall, so don't lay that demon solely at Irvin's feet.

I have empathy for people that have made mistakes that I think are good people at the core. I believe this to be true about Irvin. For that reason I'll always defend Irvin, he's arguably my favorite Cowboy of all-time, faults and all.