Here Is What This All Boils Down To

Toruk_Makto

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They take them every year and look what has happened to them. Bust after bust after bust.

If that were the secret to their success, Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richards, Darryl Roberts, Jemea Thomas, Logan Ryan, Duron Harmon, Tavon Wilson, Nate Ebner, Alfonzo Dennard, Ras-I Dowling etc. would all have been on the team the last few years and making a difference in winning more. Most have been complete washouts and a few were only okay contributors.

DBs are hard to evaluate, and the Patriots, thanks to their pro personnel department and their lack of fear of veterans have overcome draft busts that would bring most teams to their knees. They bought free agents and lucked out on UDFAs.

So using NE as a blueprint really doesn't work.



This is a game won in the trenches. I know people like to pretend it doesn't, but it is entirely true.

Fix the DL. Make it a strength. Then you can play around with DBs. You start building from the outside in, you are just waiting to be beaten.

I get me a DE and more help at DT and I go to war.

We cannot ignore the secondary this year simply because we are in a position where the bodies on the roster dictate we take them.

But all in all, the primary focus should be to start on the line. A secondary centric draft would be a huge mistake.
You're missing the point. It's not that the Patriots are great drafters (they aren't). But it's instructive to know what position the best coach of all time values. And of those positions defensive secondary is one.
 

Alexander

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It's not "secondary centric", it's defensive talent centric. There's a difference.

If there are two DBs taken in the premium rounds it becomes "secondary centric". Your best chances at getting a starter have been spent on the back half of the defense.

The Patriots have a model for their defense and it mostly centers around pass coverage, that's why they have a good defense just about every year. They're notoriously cheap, and they know secondary are expensive positions. They like to get a #1 guy, and then they fill out most of the guys with high picks, guys with actual talent they can get on the cheap.

Sorry, but this is not a blueprint to follow.

They may center around pass coverage, but they aren't getting there by drafting to it.

They have bought and paid for their secondary. From Revis to Browner to bringing back Chung who they let go. They got fortunate with Butler and have had to patch things at safety.

Now, they have bought more corners with Gilmore. Gee, I wonder why they keep doing that?

Is it because drafting secondary players over and over is a wasted cause?

The key is winning certainly isn't to keep drafting secondary players as they have proven.

Yeah, the game is mostly won in the trenches, but in this league you have to have guys that can cover/force turnovers. It's trending towards a WR, quick step drop and release league. I wouldn't be surprised if this last year had the quickest "time before release" in history. Maybe it's a fad, maybe it isn't. But, in the NFC, if you don't have guys that can cover quick release, high percentage throws, you're going to get smoked.

I know people like to pretend the pass rush is the sole, determining factor in how well you defend the pass, but it's entirely false. The base defense has turned into a nickel alignment. There's a reason. That's also why NYG brought in a handful of DB's instead of just relying on their pass rush.

The primary focus should be on the line, yeah. But, ignoring half your defense isn't how you go about it.

I don't think I was suggesting to ignoring the defense, I just don't think a secondary is "half the defense".

You brought up the Giants. They also bought a run stuffer and LOS pace setter. Harrison perhaps more than Olivier or Jenkins set the tone.

See where I am going here? Oh yes. The trenches, not the perimeter.

We have weak links inside at DT and at LBer too.

But we lost more DBs so of course we have to replace that. But I don't think we look at the roster that way.

We look at bodies. At head count. Well, we have enough DL, so we better get some DBs since we did zero in free agency.

The idea is not to react to a numerical loss and think that solves anything.

Just because the bodies are short in the secondary, that does not mean you draft to it excessively hard.
 

gmoney112

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If there are two DBs taken in the premium rounds it becomes "secondary centric". Your best chances at getting a starter have been spent on the back half of the defense.



Sorry, but this is not a blueprint to follow.

They may center around pass coverage, but they aren't getting there by drafting to it.

They have bought and paid for their secondary. From Revis to Browner to bringing back Chung who they let go. They got fortunate with Butler and have had to patch things at safety.

Now, they have bought more corners with Gilmore. Gee, I wonder why they keep doing that?

Is it because drafting secondary players over and over is a wasted cause?

The key is winning certainly isn't to keep drafting secondary players as they have proven.



I don't think I was suggesting to ignoring the defense, I just don't think a secondary is "half the defense".

You brought up the Giants. They also bought a run stuffer and LOS pace setter. Harrison perhaps more than Olivier or Jenkins set the tone.

See where I am going here? Oh yes. The trenches, not the perimeter.

We have weak links inside at DT and at LBer too.

But we lost more DBs so of course we have to replace that. But I don't think we look at the roster that way.

We look at bodies. At head count. Well, we have enough DL, so we better get some DBs since we did zero in free agency.

The idea is not to react to a numerical loss and think that solves anything.

Just because the bodies are short in the secondary, that does not mean you draft to it excessively hard.

You keep bringing up this point about "numbers", which I have yet to mention once.

The most talented player at DB or DE.

Talent.

As far as DE's, there are no Khalil Mack's at 28. They're all complete projection as well. You don't draft an inferior player for need.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. As far as the Patriots winning with DB's, the fact their roster is still stacked with high picks and had one of the better pass defense in the NFL last year, as well as numerous Super Bowls with good pass defenses, I think that speaks for itself. 5/11 players. Half your defense.

Gotta run though. Good chattin'.
 
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Alexander

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You keep bringing up this point about "numbers", which I have yet to mention once.

The most talented player at DB or DE.

Talent.

And that was kind of the point I was trying to get across.

What is "talent" at DB?

The Patriots tried their hardest I am sure to get that. Didn't pay off. They had to buy it.

As far as DE's, there are no Khalil Mack's at 28. They're all complete projection as well. You don't draft an inferior player for need.

I also did not say a thing about forcing it. I was referring to the totality of the draft as a whole.

Looking for that "dominant pass rusher" is just as much of a white whale as a "shut down corner".

But I bet if I have a stronger line it pays off more than trying to hit picks in the secondary. It is far harder to evaluate.

Keep in mind, I am not suggesting just edge rushers. I am talking about not thinking the likes of Paea are going to be anything more than, at best, an accessory in a rotation. We could use some DT help too.

It is about keeping an open mind going into the draft versus freaking out because we lost three secondary players in free agency.

If you want a defensive centric draft, it better include the whole deal and yes, take the best "talent'.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. As far as the Patriots winning with DB's, the fact their roster is still stacked with high picks and had one of the better pass defense in the NFL last year, as well as numerous Super Bowls with good pass defenses, I think that speaks for itself. 5/11 players. Half your defense.

Well, when we get a developed pro personnel department that uses FA and signing veterans off the street effectively, we can talk about that.

We don't do it. And we are all in on this draft.
 

Toruk_Makto

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Missing the forest for all the trees re the Patriots.

Yes they've struck put trying to draft it and so have SPENT BIG THERE. Their issue is they just haven't been great drafters of the position. Not that the position isn't valuable.
 

Techsass

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It probably also doesn't help that they're usually near the end of the line when they draft.
 

Verdict

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It is if you really don't know what is best for the team and you are looking at it from the wrong perspective.

I really hope they took a critical look at this team, with particular concentration on the playoff loss, before making up their minds on a course of attack.

It is one thing to react to offseason FA losses. It is another to forget why one of your better teams over the last 20 years failed. That loss was because we could not compete defensively, because of no pass rush. Same thing happened in 2014 against the same team.


You are right. Let's bring Greg Ellis, Shante Carver and Ebeneezer Ekuban out of retirement. This would do just about as much good as swinging and missing on a reach for DE and it wouldn't waste a draft pick either.
 

AsthmaField

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You are right. Let's bring Greg Ellis, Shante Carver and Ebeneezer Ekuban out of retirement. This would do just about as much good as swinging and missing on a reach for DE and it wouldn't waste a draft pick either.
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