Honest assessment of player values

[gollum]

Some of the rumored players to be traded lately have been Carpenter and Spears. If you take off your blue tinted glasses, to whom do you think they might be traded to and for what compensation?

I think the below possibilities are plausible:

Carpenter to:
a) Miami b) Chicago c) St. Louis d) New England e) Arizona f) Cincinnati g) New Orleans g) Other?

I can't see us getting more than a 3rd at the absolute most if it is a conditional pick, but most likely a 4th.


Spears I believe has at least a little more value as he has seen the field quite a bit. A scenario that I would like to see and that makes sense is the following trade:

Dallas sends Marcus Spears and #28(1st rnd) to Detroit for WR Roy Williams and #76(3rd rnd). Detroit likely will lose Shaun Rogers and Marcus is better at stopping the run than getting pressure. This means we can concentrate on CB in the first round, get our young stud WR who's happy to be back in Texas, and use the third round pick(we have two now) on your flavor of Kevin Smith(Cent.Fla), Ray Rice(Rutgers), Steve Slaton(WVU), Jamaal Charles(UT), Tashard Choice(GT), or Mike Hart(Mich). You don't need to waste a first round pick on a complimentary back to Barber. Besides, there are some shifty, change of pace guys in that list. We save a little cap money by getting two first rounders off the books and allocate that money for a playmaker.

 

[CF74]

So Spears is only worth a 3rd round pick with that logic? I'll pass...

 

[pgreptom]

I would take it. No doubt I would take it. Could we afford it, though? Owens wants an extension, Williams will obviously want an extension - Newman needs one, so does Hamlin, and Barber.

I don't think we could afford Williams.

 

[gollum]

So Spears is only worth a 3rd round pick with that logic? I'll pass...

Does that mean you think Spears is worth more than a 3rd round pick? Who would give up more than that for what he has produced on the field? He's solid, but not a star, at least not in the 3-4.

The bonus is that for a late round 1st, you get a bona fide playmaker without having to roll the dice on a rookie receiver...always a chancy proposition. And he would LOVE to be a Cowboy, especially in this offense.

I tried to be realistic and not just one-sided in my trade, even though it would be with the man genius Millen.

 

[gollum]

I don't think we could afford Williams.

As much as I like Ferguson, I don't think he is worth $4 million/year to rotate. I'd actually look at a run-stopping NT or two in the mid to late round of the draft to team with Tank and let Ratliff move to DE.

 

[CF74]

Does that mean you think Spears is worth more than a 3rd round pick? Who would give up more than that for what he has produced on the field? He's solid, but not a star, at least not in the 3-4.

The bonus is that for a late round 1st, you get a bona fide playmaker without having to roll the dice on a rookie receiver...always a chancy proposition. And he would LOVE to be a Cowboy, especially in this offense.

I tried to be realistic and not just one-sided in my trade, even though it would be with the man genius Millen.

Say what you want about Spears, he's still a 1st rounder and it doesn't add up. And switching back to a 4-3 would only be in his favor for even more improvement. And personally I think RW can be had for a 2nd rounder straight up...

 

[firehawk350]

Say what you want about Spears, he's still a 1st rounder and it doesn't add up. And switching back to a 4-3 would only be in his favor for even more improvement. And personally I think RW can be had for a 2nd rounder straight up...

At this point, I doubt anybody cares where Spears was drafted. Say what you will, he hasn't produced at all so you need to keep that in mind when you trade him. 4-3 DTs are cheap, you can get a decent one all over the draft, so I doubt he'll go for a first day pick.

I would actually trade more for Carp, because he hasn't gotten a chance in a LB heavy team. Maybe as a 4-3 OLB, I could see a 3rd or 4th for him. But the problem with this is everybody knows Dallas wants to get rid of them, so nobody is going to pay a premium.

I think if your spears and a first for RW and a 3rd is going to happen, it would happen on draft day. I think the Lions would have to see somebody they really want, somebody they think can be a playmaker, at #22 to make that kind of trade. Don't just get rid of an elite receiver for a low-end DT/DE unless there's a damn good reason to, not just for the sake of a first rounder.

 

[DaBoys4Life]

Say what you want about Spears, he's still a 1st rounder and it doesn't add up. And switching back to a 4-3 would only be in his favor for even more improvement. And personally I think RW can be had for a 2nd rounder straight up...

now wheres your logic at RW was a top 5 pick Spears is a mid 1st round pick hasn't lived up to expectations. Spears for a 3rd is good IMO and i doubt RW could be had for a 2nd rounder.

 

[CF74]

At this point, I doubt anybody cares where Spears was drafted. Say what you will, he hasn't produced at all so you need to keep that in mind when you trade him. 4-3 DTs are cheap, you can get a decent one all over the draft, so I doubt he'll go for a first day pick.



I think if your spears and a first for RW and a 3rd is going to happen, it would happen on draft day. I think the Lions would have to see somebody they really want, somebody they think can be a playmaker, at #22 to make that kind of trade. Don't just get rid of an elite receiver for a low-end DT/DE unless there's a damn good reason to, not just for the sake of a first rounder.

1st of all Spears plays DE and he's a proven starter and run stuffer. He may not be a sack master but he has won the starting job under 2 different head coaches. Why trade him for an unproven #3 this early in the game? And if RW is really all we're after here why pay so much? You wanna give up the 22nd pick to boot. They would probably take a 2nd rounder for him or if push came to shove, our 28th pick. Let's not play Madden with The Dallas Cowboys:spanking:

 

[CF74]

now wheres your logic at RW was a top 5 pick Spears is a mid 1st round pick hasn't lived up to expectations. Spears for a 3rd is good IMO and i doubt RW could be had for a 2nd rounder.

No he wasn't, he was picked 7th and is questionable for training camp this year. Again you don't trade away solid starters for 3rd round picks this early in their careers...

 

[firehawk350]

1st of all Spears plays DE and he's a proven starter and run stuffer. He may not be a sack master but he has won the starting job under 2 different head coaches. Why trade him for an unproven #3 this early in the game? And if RW is really all we're after here why pay so much? You wanna give up the 22nd pick to boot. They would probably take a 2nd rounder for him or if push came to shove, our 28th pick. Let's not play Madden with The Dallas Cowboys:spanking:

I realize Spears plays DE, but Detriot plays 4-3 and that's where they'd cast Spears at.

There are solid players (guys like Spears, Kosier and Hurd) that you can rely on and then there's guys like Roy Williams, guys who are true playmakers. Solid dudes, especially at 4-3 DT (which is what Detriot will be looking at) are found all over the draft, so I don't think they'll pay much for Spears.

And we're going on the 4th year for Spears, I'm not sure he's going to get much better. Right now, after this many years and as many starts as Spears has gotten to prove he's a force, I don't think his draft position will factor into many trades. I think you might be able to get a 3rd rounder, but seeing as Dallas is making it pretty well known they want to unload him, you are driving down your price.

 

[CF74]

I realize Spears plays DE, but Detriot plays 4-3 and that's where they'd cast Spears at.

There are solid players (guys like Spears, Kosier and Hurd) that you can rely on and then there's guys like Roy Williams, guys who are true playmakers. Solid dudes, especially at 4-3 DT (which is what Detriot will be looking at) are found all over the draft, so I don't think they'll pay much for Spears.

And we're going on the 4th year for Spears, I'm not sure he's going to get much better. Right now, after this many years and as many starts as Spears has gotten to prove he's a force, I don't think his draft position will factor into many trades. I think you might be able to get a 3rd rounder, but seeing as Dallas is making it pretty well known they want to unload him, you are driving down your price.

Why sell him short? I'm not driving down my price, you are. Spears is the unsung hero in Greg's success, he absorbs the blocks while Big Greg gets to the QB. It just doesn't make sense to me to pair him in a trade for RW if it's not necessary and like you say, there are guys like him available all over the place in the draft...

 

[firehawk350]

Why sell him short? I'm not driving down my price, you are. Spears is the unsung hero in Greg's success, he absorbs the blocks while Big Greg gets to the QB. It just doesn't make sense to me to pair him in a trade for RW if it's not necessary and like you say, there are guys like him available all over the place in the draft...

In that case, who cares who is driving down the price, the price is down because I know you want to get rid of him and nobody really wants him. Like I said, you can find a lot of guys in the draft who can do what he does. He's a big body and that's it. For a first day pick, you'd want somebody who can at least make plays.

Anyways, I'm not the one who came up with the trade, I'm just saying what's wrong with it. RW is worth a second rounder (according to some sources I've read) and Spears goes for a third? Something aint adding up here.

 

[firehawk350]

For reference...

Spears has 30 tackles and 2 sacks
Canty has 43 tackles and 3.5 sacks

For comparison...

Pats -
Seymour (missed half the season) 23 tackles and 1.5 sacks
Ty Warren - 53 tackles and 4 sacks

Chargers -
Luis Castillo (missed half the season) 33 tackles and 2.5 sacks
Igor Olshansky - 49 tackles and 3.5 sacks

Jets -
Kenyon Coleman - 83 tackles / 1.5 sacks
Shaun Ellis - 49 tackles / 5 sacks

Steelers
Brett Keisel - 39 tackles / 2 sacks
T Kirschke (started 4 games) - 26 tackles / 2 sacks

So, unless I missed a 3-4 team, you can see that Spears is the worst starting DE in the league, at least statistically. Second worst in sacks (for players that played a full season) and worst in tackles. I know he's supposed to "absorb" blockers, but cmon now, you have to think he would do SOMETHING.

 

[CrazyCowboy]

We should be careful with Spears.....his lights are about to come on.

 

[justbob]

We should be careful with Spears.....his lights are about to come on.

ut the big question --Will anyone be home when they do ?

 

[TheHerd]

For reference...

Spears has 30 tackles and 2 sacks
Canty has 43 tackles and 3.5 sacks

For comparison...

Pats -
Seymour (missed half the season) 23 tackles and 1.5 sacks
Ty Warren - 53 tackles and 4 sacks

Chargers -
Luis Castillo (missed half the season) 33 tackles and 2.5 sacks
Igor Olshansky - 49 tackles and 3.5 sacks

Jets -
Kenyon Coleman - 83 tackles / 1.5 sacks
Shaun Ellis - 49 tackles / 5 sacks

Steelers
Brett Keisel - 39 tackles / 2 sacks
T Kirschke (started 4 games) - 26 tackles / 2 sacks

So, unless I missed a 3-4 team, you can see that Spears is the worst starting DE in the league, at least statistically. Second worst in sacks (for players that played a full season) and worst in tackles. I know he's supposed to "absorb" blockers, but cmon now, you have to think he would do SOMETHING.

Why can't we get a guy like Kenyon Coleman? :laugh1:

Just kidding before I get flamed.

 

[jterrell]

just a couple of notes.

1. Detroit is stupid but not stupid enough to trade Roy Williams for a late 2nd. Do not believe everything you read. If anything Roy's agent floated that to get hi name bandied about in trade talks. Roy Williams is the Lions best player, period. He is far better than Calvin Johnson who catches the ball at a lower rate than T.O. That would be a fire sale. They may trade him for a late first and a player but anything less and they would have even more egg on their face. Carpenter, and 28 would allow them to argue to their fans they got two first rounders for Roy Williams. And we'd do that deal every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

2. Marcus Spears lacks bursts and is not a first round talent. He is a good fit here in the 3-4 and is a solid starter but that is not round 1 ability we see. Canty outplays him easily. If we trade him Jay Ratliff takes over that spot and Fergie stays at the Nose with Tank as the backup/pass rusher. I believe Ratliff is the better player.

 

[jrumann59]

For reference...

Spears has 30 tackles and 2 sacks
Canty has 43 tackles and 3.5 sacks

For comparison...

Pats -
Seymour (missed half the season) 23 tackles and 1.5 sacks
Ty Warren - 53 tackles and 4 sacks

Chargers -
Luis Castillo (missed half the season) 33 tackles and 2.5 sacks
Igor Olshansky - 49 tackles and 3.5 sacks

Jets -
Kenyon Coleman - 83 tackles / 1.5 sacks
Shaun Ellis - 49 tackles / 5 sacks

Steelers
Brett Keisel - 39 tackles / 2 sacks
T Kirschke (started 4 games) - 26 tackles / 2 sacks

So, unless I missed a 3-4 team, you can see that Spears is the worst starting DE in the league, at least statistically. Second worst in sacks (for players that played a full season) and worst in tackles. I know he's supposed to "absorb" blockers, but cmon now, you have to think he would do SOMETHING.

Going by your reference then Canty isn't head and shoulders better.

 

[jterrell]

Going by your reference then Canty isn't head and shoulders better.

Canty is in line with other starters, not better or worse just about where they are. He can make plays on occasion but isn't dominant.

Spears stands out when he makes a play because it is so seldom.

He isn't garbage but he is certainly not disruptive enough.

I wonder how Shaun Rogers would fit as a 3-4 DE. He is certainly more disruptive... internally and externally, lol. Adding his ex-UT teammate and changing his position worked wonders.