Horn in our System

[Hawkeye0202]

I prefer Farley pre-injury as well. Clearly, the best athlete at the position. Surtain will be good day 1, just don't see much upside, this might be the best he gets. Horn still needs polish and learn who to play less grabby, if he can clean up his technique, could be the better player down the line. However, it's more of a projection, which makes him more risky.

As one someone tweet the other day, CBs have to be pretty sloppy to penalties called against them in college. Horn had 5 last season alone......the question is why? Lack of technique, confidence, or pushing the envelope ( see what he can get away with). Not to mention, the impact of penalties on college ( 10 yards ?) vs NFL is huge.

 

[Cowboyny]

As one someone tweet the other day, CBs have to be pretty sloppy to penalties called against them in college. Horn had 5 last season alone......the question is why? Lack of technique, confidence, or pushing the envelope ( see what he can get away with). Not to mention, the impact of penalties on college ( 10 yards ?) vs NFL is huge.

This is the biggest concern with Horn. Can he learn to be less grabby and still be effective? He's more of a projection.

 

[darthseinfeld]

As one someone tweet the other day, CBs have to be pretty sloppy to penalties called against them in college. Horn had 5 last season alone......the question is why? Lack of technique, confidence, or pushing the envelope ( see what he can get away with). Not to mention, the impact of penalties on college ( 10 yards ?) vs NFL is huge.

Horn mentioned that was something he was going to work on during his interview

 

[Hawkeye0202]

This is the biggest concern with Horn. Can he learn to be less grabby and still be effective? He's more of a projection.

I mean penalties called in the NFL vs college is night and day. It's not even close......NFL refs will be all over his a....
Then what, can he clean it up? Does it impact his confidence or cockiness? Do we then start seeing him playing 10 yards off receivers. You can bet every receiver will remind of his penalties just to get in his head....

 

[Hawkeye0202]

Horn mentioned that was something he was going to work on during his interview

He better.....coz he's going against the best receivers EVERY WEEK.

 

[Cowboyny]

I mean penalties called in the NFL vs college is night and day. It's not even close......NFL refs will be all over his a....
Then what, can he clean it up? Does it impact his confidence or cockiness? Do we then start seeing him playing 10 yards off receivers. You can bet every receiver will remind of his penalties just to get in his head....

These are all legitimate questions. The flip side is, if he corrects some of his flaws, he could be the better corner down the line. It's the floor vs ceiling debate. Surtain is better today, but will he have the better career? Many think, this is the best you are going to see Surtain.

 

[fansince68]

Doesnt mean that that is going to hurt Surtain in the pro's. It's the same front 7 Diggs had in 2019, and his 2020 statistics were significant better than all the CB's that went ahead of him. That point wasnt really intended to involve Horn, whom I think is an excellent prospect and I would happy to have at 10. Its more about putting too much into Surtains supporting class as far knocking him as a prospect. Here is Diggs performance last year Vs. The first round CB class

Trevon Diggs:

54.8 % 85.8 rating. 5 TD's 3 INT's


Jeffery Okudah:

77.4% comp. 118 rating. 2 TD's. 1 INT

CJ Henderson:

64.7% comp. 110.2 rating. 4 TD's 1 INT

AJ Terrell:

67% comp. 109.6 rating. 6 TD's 1 INT

Damon Arnett: note 32 targets

78.1% comp 106.9 rating 0 TD's 0 INTs

Noah Igbinoghene: note 25 targets

56% comp. 137.5 rating. 3 TDs. 0 INT's

Jeff Gladney:

70% comp. 118 rating. 6 TDs. 0 INTs

If we would have had a decent FS, Diggs numbers would have been astronomical.

 

[Hawkeye0202]

These are all legitimate questions. The flip side is, if he corrects some of his flaws, he could be the better corner down the line. It's the floor vs ceiling debate. Surtain is better today, but will he have the better career? Many think, this is the best you are going to see Surtain.

True but that "best" has already matched up against some of the better receivers already in the NFL. In other words, does his talent translate to a top 15 NFL CB right now. Listening to his dad talk, you can tell he's schooled and taught him everything he knows about the position/league.

 

[Cowboyny]

True but that "best" has already matched up against some of the better receivers already in the NFL. In other words, does his talent translate to a top 15 NFL CB right now. Listening to his dad talk, you can tell he's schooled and taught him everything he knows about the position/league.

The competition argument is tough to make, when Horn plays in the same conference and had to go against all the Alabama receivers. Add in, Surtain has played on the best team in the country with far better talent around him.

I like Surtain better, but Horn isn't that far behind. Both are top 12 prospects in this class. I have heard Horn is rated much higher then where the media scouts have been projecting him.

 

[darthseinfeld]

I think we have passed the paralysis by analysis threshold with Surtain and Horn. Both guys are the type of CB you want to draft in the 8 to 12 range. But have top tier #1 CB make ups. I think we want Denzel Ward or Jalen Ramsey, and those went as high as they did for a reason

 

[Malhavoc]

I think we have passed the paralysis by analysis threshold with Surtain and Horn. Both guys are the type of CB you want to draft in the 8 to 12 range. But have top tier #1 CB make ups. I think we want Denzel Ward or Jalen Ramsey, and those went as high as they did for a reason

I agree. We should all be in acceptance mode that one of these guys will likely be the pick.

 

[Proof]

The point I was making you cant assume that a player that played with a top front 7 will struggle in the pro's. Bama CB's recently have thrived transitioning to the NFL. It want a comparative between Horn and Surtain. The point I made that you responded to was that Surtains front 7 wasn't any better than Humphreys when he was in Alabama

Not my point to defend, but I think he was saying that as a defense of horn re: the discrepancy in their numbers vs snaps. Not knocking surtain, just providing some context for Horn.

personally I’ll be happy with either

 

[darthseinfeld]

Not my point to defend, but I think he was saying that as a defense of horn re: the discrepancy in their numbers vs snaps. Not knocking surtain, just providing some context for Horn.

personally I’ll be happy with either

I understand that, I have no issues with Horn whatsoever

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

This is a football forum. We shouldn't have to explain to you why the relative talent level at Alabama is significantly higher than South Carolina.

You have to have a requisite level of intelligence to understand why a generic blanket claim like "buh, he played with better surrounding talent" is so mind-numbingly unconvincing.

Having said that, I see why you're so swayed by it.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

I fail to see what point you're making.

Less pass rush means you have to cover longer that you can't cheat on underneath routes and all other kinds of issues in terms of coverage. It is what it is.

Moreso Horn lined up over the opponent's best receiver and followed him around the formation. Surtain played right corner.

Surtain is also not a plus athlete. his recovery speed and change of direction are mediocre. Horn is one.

Surtain is better in his footwork, handwork, and tackling technique. Horn is more proven across the formation and has better instincts. I see him peel off and drive on throws to other receivers. Surtain doesn't do that.

Diggs did too fwiw.

Hey Guyz!!! Fuzzy is back and he's firing up the misinformation campaign again!!!

Horn tested slightly better than Surtain in terms of composite relative athletic score (RAS). To deduce that Surtain is supposedly "not a plus athlete" is ignorant.

 

[Malhavoc]

Yeah this thought that Surtain is not athletic and has reached his ceiling is ridiculous.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Yeah this thought that Surtain is not athletic and has reached his ceiling is ridiculous.

It's an annual draft trope....if you have a QB that doesn't have a big arm he almost is always described as making up for it with his "football IQ" or "instincts." People see Surtain as polished and composed with his technique so they presume it's necessary to supposedly overcome his "lack of athleticism."

 

[805BoysInBlue]

I’d rather have fairly, but I’d settle for horn over surtain. I see him as a guy who won’t get better. His dad gave him a technique advantage over college guys. He has no athleticism to rely on. 4.44 pro translates to 4.54 or slower at the combine. Plus do t ignore the fact that horn and fairly both have longer arms.

Didn't he rank like a 98 in SPARQ?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You have to have a requisite level of intelligence to understand why a generic blanket claim like "buh, he played with better surrounding talent" is so mind-numbingly unconvincing.

Having said that, I see why you're so swayed by it.

It's an argument. I get that you want to isolate it and make it inconsequential but there are easily understandable advantages to having a conference best pass rush as opposed to the worst.

It goes along with other arguments like which is the better athlete, relative roles in their schemes, what they were asked to do in their schemes, etc.

Grow up and get over yourself.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Hey Guyz!!! Fuzzy is back and he's firing up the misinformation campaign again!!!

Horn tested slightly better than Surtain in terms of composite relative athletic score (RAS). To deduce that Surtain is supposedly "not a plus athlete" is ignorant.

I state my opinion on a player and you do this asinine melodrama.

You then take pro day times at face value. Ignorant indeed.

Nevermind that doing so makes Horn one top 3 CB athletes ever recorded.

Surtain ran a 4.46 at his pro day. When I watch his lack of recovery speed on tape I think his time at the combine would be in the low 4.5s. He does not have plus speed.

4.44 just isn't a good shuttle score. He didn't do the 3 cone but again when looking at him covering curl routes I don't see plus change of direction.

His jumps are good and you can pat yourself on the back with these holistic athletics scores but what matters for a cornerback is quickness, change of direction, and long speed. His jumps manifest contesting and high pointing balls. He doesn't leaps off the snap like a linemen.