Horn in our System

[CalPolyTechnique]

I state my opinion on a player and you do this asinine melodrama.

You then take pro day times at face value. Ignorant indeed.

Nevermind that doing so makes Horn one top 3 CB athletes ever recorded.

Surtain ran a 4.46 at his pro day. When I watch his lack of recovery speed on tape I think his time at the combine would be in the low 4.5s. He does not have plus speed.

4.44 just isn't a good shuttle score. He didn't do the 3 cone but again when looking at him covering curl routes I don't see plus change of direction.

His jumps are good and you can pat yourself on the back with these holistic athletics scores but what matters for a cornerback is quickness, change of direction, and long speed. His jumps manifest contesting and high pointing balls. He doesn't leaps off the snap like a linemen.

Just as expected....long-winded blathering about why the facts, which fly in the face of your claim are somehow wrong.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

It's an argument. I get that you want to isolate it and make it inconsequential but there are easily understandable advantages to having a conference best pass rush as opposed to the worst.

It goes along with other arguments like which is the better athlete, relative roles in their schemes, what they were asked to do in their schemes, etc.

Grow up and get over yourself.

“It’s an argument...”

 

[tunahelper]

Surtain was surrounded by great talent.

Yes, but Alabama played with leads more often I would assume. This leads to more passing opportunities on Surtain as well.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Yes, but Alabama played with leads more often I would assume. This leads to more passing opportunities on Surtain as well.

Great point. It will fall on deaf ears and the next generic claim will be trotted out.

 

[pacy]

Yes, but Alabama played with leads more often I would assume. This leads to more passing opportunities on Surtain as well.

Doesn't take away from the fact that he got way better help from his front 7 then Horn got from his. Even if there were more passing attempts.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Doesn't take away from the fact that he got way better help from his front 7 then Horn got from his. Even if there were more passing attempts.

Doesn’t make it a better argument repeating the same claim.

 

[pacy]

Doesn’t make it a better argument repeating the same claim.

I know it is hard for you to understand. Didn't we figure that out yet?

 

[stilltheguru]

So sad that we dont realize seattle didnt have 2 elite corners but 2 elite safeties and a great dline. This team is ******** if they take Surtain or Horn

 

[pacy]

So sad that we dont realize seattle didnt have 2 elite corners but 2 elite safeties and a great dline. This team is ******** if they take Surtain or Horn

Great point. What does the best Corner do you if teams are still running it down your throat.

 

[beware_d-ware]

I state my opinion on a player and you do this asinine melodrama.

You then take pro day times at face value. Ignorant indeed.

Nevermind that doing so makes Horn one top 3 CB athletes ever recorded.

Surtain ran a 4.46 at his pro day. When I watch his lack of recovery speed on tape I think his time at the combine would be in the low 4.5s. He does not have plus speed.

4.44 just isn't a good shuttle score. He didn't do the 3 cone but again when looking at him covering curl routes I don't see plus change of direction.

His jumps are good and you can pat yourself on the back with these holistic athletics scores but what matters for a cornerback is quickness, change of direction, and long speed. His jumps manifest contesting and high pointing balls. He doesn't leaps off the snap like a linemen.

Patrick Surtain's athleticism shows when it is size adjusted. He checked in to his Pro Day at 6'2" 208 and was listed by Bama at a similar number for years. That is 94th percentile height and 94th percentile weight for a CB.

Average 4.5ish speed - agreed
Average COD - agreed
Good burst - agreed

But him doing all those at a tank-esque size is what makes him a plus athlete. The 40 punishes heavy guys and agility drills punish tall guys with a high center of gravity. Surtain's about on level with CBs almost 20lbs smaller than him on both.

He's not on the Jalen Ramsey or Patrick Peterson level where he weighs in like the Hulk, runs a low 4.4 anyway, and then jumps out of the gym. But those guys were all-decade prospects.

 

[DanA]

My take on the Surtain vs Horn debate

Athletically:
Horn is a slightly better athlete, both tested well but Horn edged in most areas on his pro-day with neither doing a 3-cone, I think Horn looks on tape to have slight better change of direction but that's probably a knock I have on both of them.. I don't think you can be too negative about Surtain results though, even pro-day adjusted they are still very good numbers.

Role:
Horn following the best receiver was impressive. He always took the biggest threat, regularly popping up all over the place. It meant he often had tougher matchups than Surtain, and saw more targets. Surtain generally spent a game playing one side, and was rarely targeted. That's a testament to the respect Surtain drew, but made watching his tape a snooze fest in comparison.

Technique:
I think Surtain is more consistent with his hand use but both are elite in this area. Surtain IMO does a better job locating the ball, and high pointing on deep routes, while Horn is better at breaking on the ball and undercutting the route. Both look a little stiff on the back pedal, and sit a little high changing direction which is common for tall guys, Surtain a little worse than Horn. On run downs, both are disciplined containing the edge, fighting off blocks, but Horn is more likely to make a business decision on the tackle with Surtain more comfortable making the tackle. Surtain is a good tackler.

Splash plays:
I wouldn't send either on a blitz, and I highly doubt Horn will force fumbles with his mentality whereas Surtain has and will. I think Surtain will get picks high pointing the ball while Horn will get some undercutting routes coming out about the same but I wouldn't expect either to get as many as Diggs will over the course of their career. Neither look to have the natural hands Diggs has, but both look better athletes and are better technicians coming out of college.

NFL transition:
I expect Surtain will do a better job hitting the ground running. He is a boundary corner, that knows his limitations and will slot right in on the right side and do his job well. I think Horn will need to get his ego checked, and learn to be less aggressive undercutting routes. Horn has already faced good opposition so the transition won't be too big for him and eventually he's the type of guy you want to follow Julio Jones or Amari Cooper. Surtain will never be able to do that. I think the floor for Surtain is Brandon Carr but is a good chance to be a top corner, plus run defender, that if protected against super twitch guys regularly makes the pro-bowl.

The floor for Horn is burnt toast that never learns he can't be so aggressive undercut routes, and has to tackle, getting ran out of the NFL. That's a bit of an exaggeration as he's already shown competent against NFL level talent I still think NFL receivers and more importantly QB's are simply better at exploiting mistakes. Surtain does grab a bit too but because he's less aggressive, and rarely gets caught behind, it doesn't stand out as much.

Assuming Horn adjusts his game, he could be a unique player in the NFL that can follow Julio Jones one week, blanketing Travis Kelse the next, and then lock down Odell Beckham. Personally, I think it's a tough call between the two but I think I like Horn's unique skills matched up with Diggs, a little better. I think we have a small speed issue with a Diggs/Surtain partnership and might struggle with big slot guys. Horn being that little bit quicker, and ability to move inside might be more complimentary.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The point I was making you cant assume that a player that played with a top front 7 will struggle in the pro's. Bama CB's recently have thrived transitioning to the NFL. It want a comparative between Horn and Surtain. The point I made that you responded to was that Surtains front 7 wasn't any better than Humphreys when he was in Alabama

Sure. It is just that these guys are very close and issues like this seperate them. I get his pass rush does not preclude success.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Patrick Surtain's athleticism shows when it is size adjusted. He checked in to his Pro Day at 6'2" 208 and was listed by Bama at a similar number for years. That is 94th percentile height and 94th percentile weight for a CB.

Average 4.5ish speed - agreed
Average COD - agreed
Good burst - agreed

But him doing all those at a tank-esque size is what makes him a plus athlete. The 40 punishes heavy guys and agility drills punish tall guys with a high center of gravity. Surtain's about on level with CBs almost 20lbs smaller than him on both.

He's not on the Jalen Ramsey or Patrick Peterson level where he weighs in like the Hulk, runs a low 4.4 anyway, and then jumps out of the gym. But those guys were all-decade prospects.

The thing that troubles me is that 4.44 shuttle. That is straight up bad. His quickness and change of direction or lack thereof show up on tape.

Horn is a legit 4.4 guy who jumps out of the gym.

I think Horn matches up with Wilson and Diggs a lot better.

 

[3rdEyewarrior]

Both players fit the cover 3 well. It comes down to, if you want the safer player or the more riskier one with higher upside to me.

I personally despise cover 3. Play mostly man.

 

[Malhavoc]

Great point. What does the best Corner do you if teams are still running it down your throat.

So who are we drafting in round 1 that’s going to fix the run defense ?

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

The thing that troubles me is that 4.44 shuttle. That is straight up bad. His quickness and change of direction or lack thereof show up on tape.

Horn is a legit 4.4 guy who jumps out of the gym.

I think Horn matches up with Wilson and Diggs a lot better.

You're referencing his short shuttle from high school, smh.

Dunce.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

So who are we drafting in round 1 that’s going to fix the run defense ?

Oh please let him say Barmore so we can say “he was only good because of the surrounding talent.”

 

[pacy]

So who are we drafting in round 1 that’s going to fix the run defense ?

May not be in this years draft. But I am pretty sure they will try to throw one of those DT into the mix. Will it help? I guess we are about to find out.

 

[pacy]

Oh please let him say Barmore so we can say “he was only good because of the surrounding talent.”

Just put me on ignore list if you don't like it. You actually bring nothing to the table anyway.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

Just put me on ignore list if you don't like it. You actually bring nothing to the table anyway.

Yes, the forum will never be the same after your profound “Bama has better players” take.