How do you rank Manning now?

[THUMPER]

A good measure would be how well the quarterback did when his team wasn't dominate.

In 1971, Staubach's first year as starter, he took a 10-4 team to 11-3, and a Super bowl victory. His next two season's were 10-4, but suffering losses in the NFC Championship games. In 1974, his record was 8-6, but he rebounded in 1975 to 10-4, while losing the Super Bowl to Pittsburgh.

In 1976, he was 11-3, but lost the first playoff game. In 1977, he was 12-2, and took a Super Bowl win over Denver. In 1978, Roger was 12-4, losing again to Pittsburgh in the Super Bowl. in 1979, we was 11-5, and lost the first playoff game. In 1980, he was 12-4, losing to the Eagles in the NFC championship game. In 1981, he gave up the reins, while the team went 12-4.

While Staubach had a great run, he was never selected to the All-Pro team. It's hard to understand why.

Staubach had a record as a starter that is equaled by none. It's got to be an anti Cowboys bias to not recognize his as a top five quarterback ever.

In the 70s most of the top QBs were in the AFC, Staubach and Tarkenton were the only great QBs in the NFC for most of the decade. There were some good ones like Greg Landry, Roman Gabriel, Billy Kilmer, Jim Hart, Steve Bartkowski, and John Brodie but the AFC had Terry Bradshaw, Ken Stabler, Dan Fouts, Bob Griese, Jim Plunkett, Ken Anderson, Joe Namath, & Bert Jones.

The All-Pro team only has room for one QB and Roger just got aced out every year even when he was the top-rated QB in the league. I always thought he was the best in the league but they didn't ask me.

 

[CATCH17]

I guess you missed the portion where I said he is ONE of the best.

I would take Brady over Manning too, but if I was forced to have Peyton Manning as my QB, I wouldn't be too bummed about it .

- Mike G.

Yeah I wouldnt cry about it. Hes a good QB no doubt.

But yeah definetely if I had to choose between him and Brady then i'll take Brady every time.

Unless its fantasy football.......

 

[CF74]

This is always a debate of who was the best.

Lets see what team mates they had.

Payton Manning: Harrison, Wayne, Clark, E. James
Troy Aikman: Irving, Johnny Paycheck, Emmitt Smith
Joe Montana: Rice, Taylor, D. Clark, B. Jones, Roger Craig
Dan Marino: Mark Clayton, Super Duper <nothing else special> *DING DING DING*
John Elway: Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, T. Davis, S Sharpe
Steve Young: Rice, Taylor, R. Watters, B. Jones
Johnny Unitas: Raymand Berry, Jimmy Orr, John Mackey (no great RBs)
Brett Farve: Antonio Freeman, Kieth Jackson, Mark Chmura, Sterling Sharpe, Ahman Green, Donald Driver

There are several others, but I think Marino did the most (by far!!!) with less. He had two great receivers, and never had a real running back or tight end to spread the defense away from his receivers yet he still to this day is the most prolific QB in history. If he ever had a real running game in the mid-eighties, he would have won a Superbowl.

This is a very solid point and more people need to remind Marino of this but unfortunatley for him, not winning the big one will always keep him below top 5 in many fans minds. At least he got to the big show

 

[Maikeru-sama]

Was Joe Montana a great QB? He played on teams with great defenses and in a very weak division his entire career in SF.

And?

Just about every QB in the Hall of Fame played on really good teams. What does it matter that you play in a Weak division, you cannot control that. If you truely are a Weak team beating a bunch of Weaklings in your division, then there is no doubt that you will get exposed eventually in the Playoffs and Montana certainly didnt.

Joe Montana had success on every level of Football he competed at.

How many years had it been since Kansas City had won a Playoff Game before Montana helped get them one game shy of the Super Bowl in 1993? I haven't done the research, but I remember the conversations back then including the fact that it was a loooong time.

- Mike G.

 

[jazzcat22]

Normally I try to skip over threads like this, but this is just outfrigginrageous. Manning at #3? Troy '3 rings' Aikman at 10? Tom " I have actually done something in the NFL compared to Farve" at 6? Disgusting. More proof of the total idiocy of the public.

No matter what poll, or who does it. No Cowboys team, or any player will ever be ranked at #1....never....especially if BSPN is running it.

Whether we as fans with biased opinions or not, and have real objective opinions [unlike the media and public]. We will never see a #1 rank.

The only person, would be Emmitt, and even at that, someone will not have him as maybe even #2.
That is why I usually don't go look at polls, or vote, except on this board.

 

[CF74]

Yeah I wouldnt cry about it. Hes a good QB no doubt.

But yeah definetely if I had to choose between him and Brady then i'll take Brady every time.

Unless its fantasy football.......

With our O-line Manning would suk:laugh2:

 

[burmafrd]

Roger retired after the 79 Season. Its ridiculous to put Bradshaw, Favre, Young ahead of roger. Unitas-maybe. Starr- same. But anyone that does not have Roger as at least a top 5-7 QB is a total moron.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm just grateful that we won't have any more knuckleheads try to argue the point that Bledsoe is as good as Manning because of Mannings shatty playoff mark.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Roger retired after the 79 Season. Its ridiculous to put Bradshaw, Favre, Young ahead of roger. Unitas-maybe. Starr- same. But anyone that does not have Roger as at least a top 5-7 QB is a total moron.

Mike Ditka was on Mike and Mike a couple of days before the Superbowl and they ask him if Payton won the Superbowl if he would take him first as a QB. He said Payton is a great QB, but Roger Staubach was the best QB he has ever seen. (or something of that nature anyhow)

 

[burmafrd]

knew I liked Ditka for a reason.

 

[Aikbach]

For my money, there is no way -- absolutely NO WAY -- that Peyton is one of the five best quarterbacks who ever lived.

And by the way, there is no justification at all for Young being ranked above Aikman. None whatsoever.

They even lie and pad his stats for him saying he won two super bowl rings, he sat on the bench for two and was at the helm for one so either way it is inaccurate.

 

[dwmyers]

The biggest problem with a rating of quarterbacks of this kind is it is biased against older players and older play.

How do you rate Sammy Baugh, for example? Sammy played when there was one squad that played offense and defense. He was a pretty good defensive back, a great quarterback and the best punter ever to play the game. How do you rate him in a platoon context?

Likewise, how would a Joe Montana rate under the 1945 rules?

Ratings of this kind are inevitably now-centric.



David.

 

[Aikbach]

The biggest problem with a rating of quarterbacks of this kind is it is biased against older players and older play.

How do you rate Sammy Baugh, for example? Sammy played when there was one squad that played offense and defense. He was a pretty good defensive back, a great quarterback and the best punter ever to play the game. How do you rate him in a platoon context?

Likewise, how would a Joe Montana rate under the 1945 rules?

Ratings of this kind are inevitably now-centric.



David.

They need to specify the greatest of the Super Bowl era to even out the criteria a bit.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is always a debate of who was the best.

Lets see what team mates they had.

Payton Manning: Harrison, Wayne, Clark, E. James
Troy Aikman: Irving, Johnny Paycheck, Emmitt Smith
Joe Montana: Rice, Taylor, D. Clark, B. Jones, Roger Craig
Dan Marino: Mark Clayton, Super Duper <nothing else special> *DING DING DING*
John Elway: Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, T. Davis, S Sharpe
Steve Young: Rice, Taylor, R. Watters, B. Jones
Johnny Unitas: Raymand Berry, Jimmy Orr, John Mackey (no great RBs)
Brett Farve: Antonio Freeman, Kieth Jackson, Mark Chmura, Sterling Sharpe, Ahman Green, Donald Driver

There are several others, but I think Marino did the most (by far!!!) with less. He had two great receivers, and never had a real running back or tight end to spread the defense away from his receivers yet he still to this day is the most prolific QB in history. If he ever had a real running game in the mid-eighties, he would have won a Superbowl.

I don't really agree with this. Marino never had backs because Marino never wanted to run the football. Heck, even he says this.

Marino had a lot more then just Duper and Clayton. He also had Tony Nathan, Nat Moore, Bruce Hardy, Jimmy Cefalo, Jim Jenson, Freddie Banks, Ferral Edmonds, Keith Jackson, Irving Fryer, OJ McDuffie, Troy Drayton and Oranda Gadsden. This says nothing about the various RBs Marino played with.

Here is what Dan Marino had at RB while in Miami.

1983 - Andra Franklin 746 yards rushing, Tony Nathan 685 yards rushing and 52 catches for 461 yards, David Overstreet 392 yards rushing.

1984 - Woody Bennett 606 yards rushing, Tony Nathan 558 yards rushing 61 catches for 579 yards, Joe Carter 495 yards rushing.

1985 - Tony Nathan 667 yards rushing 72 catches for 651 yards, Ron Davenport 370 yards, Lorenzo Hampton 369 yards, Woody Bennett 256 yards.

1986 - Lorenzo Hampton 830 yards rushing 61 catches for 446 yards, Ron Davenport 314 rushing yards 20 catches for 177 yards, Tony Nathan 203 yards rushing 48 catches for 457 yards,

1987 - Troy Stradford 619 yards rushing 48 catches for 457 yards, Lorenzo Hampton 289 yards rushing 23 catches 223 yards, Ron Scott-Ron Davenport-Woody Bennett (combined) 415 yards rushing 33 cathes 292 yards.

1988 - Lorenzo Hampton 414 yards rushing 23 catches 204 yards, Troy Stradford 335 yards rushing 56 catches 426 yards, Ron Davenport - Woody Bennett 608 yard rushing 32 receptions 298 yards.

1989 - Sammie Smith 659 rushing, Stradford 240 yards rushing 25 catches 233 yards, Marc Logan - Ron Davenport - Lorenzo Hampton 304 yards rushing

1990 - Sammie Smith 831 yards 11 catches 134 yards, Marc Logan 317 yards rushing 7 catches 54 yards, Troy Stradford - Tony Paige 233 yards rushing 65 catches 504 yards.

1991 - Mark Higgs 905 yards rushing 11 catches 80 yards, Sammie Smith 297 yards 14 catches 95 yards, Tony Paige - Mark Higgs - Aaron Craver 145 yards rushing 76 catches 616 yards.

1992 - Mark Higgs 915 yards rushing 16 catches 42 yards, Bobby Humphrey 471 yards rushing 54 catches for 507 yards, Tony Paige - Keith Jackson 96 catches for 993 yards.

1993 - Mark Higgs 693 yards rushing, Terry Kirby 390 yards rushing 75 catches 874 yards, Keith Byers 269 yards rushing and 61 catches for 613 yards.

1994 - Bernie Parmalee 868 yards rushing 34 catches 249 yards, Irving Spikes - Terry Kirby - Mark Higgs - Keith Byers 677 yards rushing 67 catches for 528 yards.

1995 - Bernie Parmalee 878 yards rushing 39 catches 345 yards, Terry Kirby 414 yards rushing 66 catches 618 yards, Spikes - Byars - 170 yards rushing 56 catches 380 yards.

1996 - Karim Abdul Jabbar 1116 yards rushing 23 catches 139 yards, Irving Spikes 316 yards rushing, Stanly Pritchett - Bernie Parmalee - Jerris McPhail 74 catches 825 yards.

1997 - Jabbar 892 yards rushing 29 catches 261 yards, Spikes - McPahail - Parmalee 385 yards rushing 69 catches for 633 yards.

1998 - Jabbar 960 rushing yards 21 catches 102 yards, John Avery 503 rushing yards 10 cathes 67 yards, Parmalee - Pritchett 38 catches 319 yards.

1999 - JJ Johnson 588 yards rushing 15 catches 100 yards, Cecil Collins 414 yards rushing, Pritchett - Jabbar - Rob Konrad _ Autry Denson 367 yards rushing 87 Catches 616 yards.

Now, as I look over this list of RBs, I would have to say that there individual numbers were not great but there combined numbers (Per Season) were pretty dang good. There are also several WRs and TEs on this list that were very talented as well. For me, it is a pretty commen misconception that Marino played with nobody. Just not the case. In fact, he played with a great deal of talent IMO.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

He went for 145 and 1TD in that game. His defense forced 3 turnovers from the Rams, one was a pick six. He made 2 passes late, and all of a sudden "he just knows how to win?" The Rams were playing a prevent defense, Grossman can advance the ball against that.... Regardless, my personal feeling is that Manning, as of right now, will go down as the greatest QB ever, and Brady is just a little overhyped, and overpraised.

Perhaps you should go back and re-watch that game. Particularly the last 2 minutes. He did much more then just complete two passes.

You are intitled to your own opinion but in the end, so am I. My opinion is that anybody who says Brady is nothing more then a system QB and is not very good has not been paying very much attention. Again I say, I'd be willing to bet my life that most probably would agree with that Tom Brady is a very good QB.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I don't really agree with this. Marino never had backs because Marino never wanted to run the football. Heck, even he says this.

Marino had a lot more then just Duper and Clayton. He also had Tony Nathan, Nat Moore, Bruce Hardy, Jimmy Cefalo, Jim Jenson, Freddie Banks, Ferral Edmonds, Keith Jackson, Irving Fryer, OJ McDuffie, Troy Drayton and Oranda Gadsden. This says nothing about the various RBs Marino played with.

Here is what Dan Marino had at RB while in Miami.

1983 - Andra Franklin 746 yards rushing, Tony Nathan 685 yards rushing and 52 catches for 461 yards, David Overstreet 392 yards rushing.

1984 - Woody Bennett 606 yards rushing, Tony Nathan 558 yards rushing 61 catches for 579 yards, Joe Carter 495 yards rushing.

1985 - Tony Nathan 667 yards rushing 72 catches for 651 yards, Ron Davenport 370 yards, Lorenzo Hampton 369 yards, Woody Bennett 256 yards.

1986 - Lorenzo Hampton 830 yards rushing 61 catches for 446 yards, Ron Davenport 314 rushing yards 20 catches for 177 yards, Tony Nathan 203 yards rushing 48 catches for 457 yards,

1987 - Troy Stradford 619 yards rushing 48 catches for 457 yards, Lorenzo Hampton 289 yards rushing 23 catches 223 yards, Ron Scott-Ron Davenport-Woody Bennett (combined) 415 yards rushing 33 cathes 292 yards.

1988 - Lorenzo Hampton 414 yards rushing 23 catches 204 yards, Troy Stradford 335 yards rushing 56 catches 426 yards, Ron Davenport - Woody Bennett 608 yard rushing 32 receptions 298 yards.

1989 - Sammie Smith 659 rushing, Stradford 240 yards rushing 25 catches 233 yards, Marc Logan - Ron Davenport - Lorenzo Hampton 304 yards rushing

1990 - Sammie Smith 831 yards 11 catches 134 yards, Marc Logan 317 yards rushing 7 catches 54 yards, Troy Stradford - Tony Paige 233 yards rushing 65 catches 504 yards.

1991 - Mark Higgs 905 yards rushing 11 catches 80 yards, Sammie Smith 297 yards 14 catches 95 yards, Tony Paige - Mark Higgs - Aaron Craver 145 yards rushing 76 catches 616 yards.

1992 - Mark Higgs 915 yards rushing 16 catches 42 yards, Bobby Humphrey 471 yards rushing 54 catches for 507 yards, Tony Paige - Keith Jackson 96 catches for 993 yards.

1993 - Mark Higgs 693 yards rushing, Terry Kirby 390 yards rushing 75 catches 874 yards, Keith Byers 269 yards rushing and 61 catches for 613 yards.

1994 - Bernie Parmalee 868 yards rushing 34 catches 249 yards, Irving Spikes - Terry Kirby - Mark Higgs - Keith Byers 677 yards rushing 67 catches for 528 yards.

1995 - Bernie Parmalee 878 yards rushing 39 catches 345 yards, Terry Kirby 414 yards rushing 66 catches 618 yards, Spikes - Byars - 170 yards rushing 56 catches 380 yards.

1996 - Karim Abdul Jabbar 1116 yards rushing 23 catches 139 yards, Irving Spikes 316 yards rushing, Stanly Pritchett - Bernie Parmalee - Jerris McPhail 74 catches 825 yards.

1997 - Jabbar 892 yards rushing 29 catches 261 yards, Spikes - McPahail - Parmalee 385 yards rushing 69 catches for 633 yards.

1998 - Jabbar 960 rushing yards 21 catches 102 yards, John Avery 503 rushing yards 10 cathes 67 yards, Parmalee - Pritchett 38 catches 319 yards.

1999 - JJ Johnson 588 yards rushing 15 catches 100 yards, Cecil Collins 414 yards rushing, Pritchett - Jabbar - Rob Konrad _ Autry Denson 367 yards rushing 87 Catches 616 yards.

Now, as I look over this list of RBs, I would have to say that there individual numbers were not great but there combined numbers (Per Season) were pretty dang good. There are also several WRs and TEs on this list that were very talented as well. For me, it is a pretty commen misconception that Marino played with nobody. Just not the case. In fact, he played with a great deal of talent IMO.

Yeah, and Aikman had Sherman Williams, Derrick Lassic, Curvin Richards, and of course the great Herschel Walker. They did wonders for Aikman's abilities.

Lets face it, the Dolphone NEVER had a real running threat. It doesn't matter what Marino said/did/wanted/bought and paid for. The fact is he did all that he had done WITHOUT a real rushing threat. ALL of the other great QBs had a rushing threat except Unitas that I can remember.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And?

Just about every QB in the Hall of Fame played on really good teams. What does it matter that you play in a Weak division, you cannot control that. If you truely are a Weak team beating a bunch of Weaklings in your division, then there is no doubt that you will get exposed eventually in the Playoffs and Montana certainly didnt.

Joe Montana had success on every level of Football he competed at.

How many years had it been since Kansas City had won a Playoff Game before Montana helped get them one game shy of the Super Bowl in 1993? I haven't done the research, but I remember the conversations back then including the fact that it was a loooong time.

- Mike G.

Pay attention. Read the whole thread then get back to me.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Yeah, and Aikman had Sherman Williams, Derrick Lassic, Curvin Richards, and of course the great Herschel Walker. They did wonders for Aikman's abilities.

Lets face it, the Dolphone NEVER had a real running threat. It doesn't matter what Marino said/did/wanted/bought and paid for. The fact is he did all that he had done WITHOUT a real rushing threat. ALL of the other great QBs had a rushing threat except Unitas that I can remember.

Statistics don't support your statement there. For one, Miami used the short passing game in lue of a power running game. Secondly, they spread out the carries to balance the attack. Overall numbers are pretty good. In short, your wrong. Marino played with much more then just two WRs.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Statistics don't support your statement there. For one, Miami used the short passing game in lue of a power running game.

You mean something that a nickel defense would help? Cause you wouldn't want to play the nickel vs the power running game would you?

Secondly, they spread out the carries to balance the attack. Overall numbers are pretty good. In short, your wrong. Marino played with much more then just two WRs.

In 1983 the Dolphins had 2,100 yards rushing, 1984 they had 1,900 yards, 1985 they had 1,700 yards, 1986 they had 1,500 yards, 1987 they had 1,600, 1988 1,200, 1998 1,300, 1990 1,500, etc...

Marino had good rushing yards to start his career but has you can see that trailed off. Yet he still bilstered defenses with his passing.

To give you a comparable. The Cowboys: (1991 - 1,700 yards), (1992 - 2,100 yards), (1993 2,100 yards), (1994 - 1,950 yards), (1995 - 2,200 yards)

Notice how much better the Cowboys got in 1992 once they had a running game?

How much did that effect Troy Aikman you ask? Lets see.

Troy Aikman 1991: CMPs: 237 ATT: 363 C.P.: 65.3% YDS: 2754 AVG: 7.6 TDs: 11 INTs: 10
Troy Aikman 1992: CMPs: 302 ATT: 473 C.P.: 63.8% YDS: 3445 AVG: 7.3 TDs: 23 INTs: 14

The entire time the Cowboys had a good rushing game Aikman's number were always good except 1998 when he was injured.

 

[THUMPER]

The biggest problem with a rating of quarterbacks of this kind is it is biased against older players and older play.

How do you rate Sammy Baugh, for example? Sammy played when there was one squad that played offense and defense. He was a pretty good defensive back, a great quarterback and the best punter ever to play the game. How do you rate him in a platoon context?

Likewise, how would a Joe Montana rate under the 1945 rules?

Ratings of this kind are inevitably now-centric.



David.

I posted my own list earlier in this thread and have Baugh at #4 behind Otto Graham, Unitas, and Staubach.

It might interest people to know that in 1945 Sammy Baugh had a 109.9 QB rating!

Otto Graham had a 109.2 QB rating in 1947.

Montana had a 112.4 rating in 1989, Young had a 112.8 in 1994, but Manning had the best year ever in 2004 with a whopping 121.1 QB rating!

My point is that when Baugh and Graham played, the ball was different, more round and less aerodynamic, and defenses could get away with absolute murder on both the receivers and the QBs. For those guys to have QB ratings of 109+ in that era is phenominal!

Graham averaged 10.2 yards per attempt! Baugh completed 70&#37; of his passes in 1945. Joe Montana and Steve Young only did that once in their careers and that was throwing dinks and dunks in the WCO, not bombs like Baugh threw.

For a QB in that era to complete 60% of his passes is extraordinary but to hit 70% is nothing short of miraculous. In their era most QBs completed about 47% of their passes and threw more INTs than TDs

Baugh was also a great DB and the best punter ever. Graham led his team to the championship game all 10 seasons that he was in the league and won 7 of them, including all 4 in the AAFC and 3 of 6 in the NFL.

It might interest some to know that some of the calculations used in today's NFL QB rating system are based on his stats.

Don't underestimate how great some of those old guys were. Graham to me is the greatest QB of all time and it's not close. Nobody has a better winning % than him, he is ahead of #2 by almost 10 percentage points! He averaged 9.0 yards per attempt for his career! No modern QB comes remotely close to that.

I could go on but I'll leave it there for now.