I am disappointed in Zone posters

[fortdick]

Can someone enlighten me as to what the appeal is for the rush to judgment? I'm racking my brain, and for the life of me, I can't understand why people are so invested as to say he should be suspended immediately...

Economically I can understand why the companies that he endorses are distancing themselves from him. I will even understand it if the Falcons ask him to leave, or suspend him themselves. But the reasons they are doing this is $$$.

And they are facing the economic pressure from people who want him gone now. But I still don't understand why people want him gone yesterday.

Edit... I'll even give fort a pass, because he's a cop, and cops always think other cops are right.

Mainly because it is what we expected from him. The fact that it is dogs that he is abusing for his entertainment just makes it easier to condemn him.

As a lawyer, you are too tied up in that give "the guy the benfit of the doubt" stuff. It is your living. You have to think that way. The rest of us can just go with our gut, and we are correct 90% of the time.

I thought something was wrong with the Duke case, but I have little or no doubt that this one is solid. Marcus Vick is just glad that he isn;t the black sheep of the family anymore.

The entire Vick gangsta image is the thing that convinces me it is real. HE portrays himself as that type of person, everyone around him is in trouble with the law, and he is completely indifferent to anything but his own self interest.

He was supposed to be the icon of the 21st century QB. He is a loser. HE has limited skills and lives of his popularity with the Hip Hop generation. Now he has is caught up in the gangsta lifestyle. I, for one, expected no less of him.

Does that answer your question, counselor?

 

[fortdick]

See I know you said this at least halfway in jest, but I'm sure you think there's some truth in what you're saying. And it leads to all kinds of misunderstandings. I can't be more clear. Support for the system and wanting to let due process play out does not equal defense of Vick. Just to clear that up.

I can;t tell you how many times I have sat in court and heard lawyers spin up lies and misrepresentations in defense of their scumbag clients. Our legal system is a battle of lawyers, very little of it actually has to do with the truth. You try to present a case and some high priced lawyer gets your evidence thrown out becasue it is prejudical. Yeah, the guy is on trial for trafficking drugs. But the fact that he has two priors should not be admitted becaue the jury might feel ill of him.

Peps, I respect you becasue I know what you are doing, and why. You may be able to convince some of these other people that it is really about fairness, but there is a reason some lawyers get $500 an hour and some work as public defenders for $75 an hour.

I bet you can tell me your win/loss record, can't ya? Why would that be important if it was about fairness and the law?

 

[dbair1967]

So we know, with certainty, all of the evidence?

pretty much, yeah

if anything, much much mroe is gonna get piled on

David

 

[theogt]

Mainly because it is what we expected from him.

Why? What had he done before to expect this from him?

As a lawyer, you are too tied up in that give "the guy the benfit of the doubt" stuff. It is your living. You have to think that way. The rest of us can just go with our gut, and we are correct 90% of the time.

I don't do criminal defense work. I'm not involved in defense work at all. It is not a part of my living in any way, shape, or form.

I thought something was wrong with the Duke case, but I have little or no doubt that this one is solid. Marcus Vick is just glad that he isn;t the black sheep of the family anymore.

The entire Vick gangsta image is the thing that convinces me it is real. HE portrays himself as that type of person, everyone around him is in trouble with the law, and he is completely indifferent to anything but his own self interest.

So if a gangster is accused of doing something wrong, you're convinced, but if a well-educated, young lacross player is accused you have doubt? I'm confused (not really) as to why that is.

 

[theogt]

pretty much, yeah

if anything, much much mroe is gonna get piled on

David

So what facts do you know, with certainty, that lead you to be certain that he is guilty? And what is he guilty of? What are the charges?

 

[peplaw06]

Mainly because it is what we expected from him. The fact that it is dogs that he is abusing for his entertainment just makes it easier to condemn him.

As a lawyer, you are too tied up in that give "the guy the benfit of the doubt" stuff. It is your living. You have to think that way. The rest of us can just go with our gut, and we are correct 90% of the time.

I thought something was wrong with the Duke case, but I have little or no doubt that this one is solid. Marcus Vick is just glad that he isn;t the black sheep of the family anymore.

The entire Vick gangsta image is the thing that convinces me it is real. HE portrays himself as that type of person, everyone around him is in trouble with the law, and he is completely indifferent to anything but his own self interest.

He was supposed to be the icon of the 21st century QB. He is a loser. HE has limited skills and lives of his popularity with the Hip Hop generation. Now he has is caught up in the gangsta lifestyle. I, for one, expected no less of him.

Does that answer your question, counselor?

Translation: I want to be right???

Does it matter whether you're right at this point, or right 9 months from now when the trial is over? What if you go around proclaiming you're right at the moment, but end up being wrong? What is the obsession with being the first to be right?

I can;t tell you how many times I have sat in court and heard lawyers spin up lies and misrepresentations in defense of their scumbag clients. Our legal system is a battle of lawyers, very little of it actually has to do with the truth. You try to present a case and some high priced lawyer gets your evidence thrown out becasue it is prejudical. Yeah, the guy is on trial for trafficking drugs. But the fact that he has two priors should not be admitted becaue the jury might feel ill of him.

Peps, I respect you becasue I know what you are doing, and why. You may be able to convince some of these other people that it is really about fairness, but there is a reason some lawyers get $500 an hour and some work as public defenders for $75 an hour.

I bet you can tell me your win/loss record, can't ya? Why would that be important if it was about fairness and the law?

Wait a second... my point was that defense of the system does not equal defense of Vick. I don't know how I can make that any clearer. It has nothing to do with lawyers, their tactics, or how much money they make. I simply think a defendant deserves to go through the process before their liberties are taken away.

PS. yes I can tell you MY win loss record.... By myself, I've had exactly ONE contested hearing. Today as a matter of fact. And I won. I'm batting 1.000, 1-0. You can applaud now ... My boss, who's been doing this for 25+ years, I guarantee you she can't tell you her total win-loss record. No way. We're much to busy to know.

 

[fortdick]

Why? What had he done before to expect this from him?

I don't do criminal defense work. I'm not involved in defense work at all. It is not a part of my living in any way, shape, or form.

So if a gangster is accused of doing something wrong, you're convinced, but if a well-educated, young lacross player is accused you have doubt? I'm confused (not really) as to why that is.

Reread your post and ask yourself a question. "Did I think before I posted that?"

If I dressed in a tennis outfit, would anyone be surprised if I was seen plaing tennis?

If I was dressed in a business suit, would anyone be surprised to see me playing tennis?

I gotta figure most people want to project an image of who they are. You are prolly assuming I am a white guy, Christian, with a middle class upbringing. You prolly suspect I am a republican. You might even think I drive a pickup.

Want to guess how many of those are correct?

If you were getting on an airplane and and stood in the boarding line behind five guys talking Farsi, repeating. "Durka, Durka, Mohammed Jihad!" would you call security? We all have prejudices. I am just not so sanctomonious to admit it.

 

[BrassCowboy]

Well duh.

Also, the poll on this forum gave the option to wait for a decision based upon the courts rulings...until further information is available to us laypeople. If found guilty, I'm sure those numbers would more than likely change.

This is exactly why, and yes it does mean we are smarter. You cannot come down on him legally before he is found guilty, but atleast for us we will wait to have more facts straight before we go judging every tom, dick, & harry before for putting their tie on wrong.

Why suspend him right now, what if he did nothing , just a little, or whole lot wrong? The NFL can afford to wait and see...

 

[fortdick]

Translation: I want to be right???

Does it matter whether you're right at this point, or right 9 months from now when the trial is over? What if you go around proclaiming you're right at the moment, but end up being wrong? What is the obsession with being the first to be right?


Wait a second... my point was that defense of the system does not equal defense of Vick. I don't know how I can make that any clearer. It has nothing to do with lawyers, their tactics, or how much money they make. I simply think a defendant deserves to go through the process before their liberties are taken away.

PS. yes I can tell you MY win loss record.... By myself, I've had exactly ONE contested hearing. Today as a matter of fact. And I won. I'm batting 1.000, 1-0. You can applaud now ... My boss, who's been doing this for 25+ years, I guarantee you she can't tell you her total win-loss record. No way. We're much to busy to know.

You asked why everyone was running to judgement. I told you. My point is that you have an interest in not prejudging.

Sure I support the system. I have to. It is all we have. But I don;t agree with the principle that he is innocent until proven guilty. If that principle always applied, there would be no need to remand to custody without bail.

And youand your boss both care about winning. Not so much about the right and wrong of it, as with the winning. You get paid more if you win.

Have you, or your boss, ever accepted a retainer and then told the client they are guilty as hell and should go to jail?

 

[Hoofbite]

are there really people who still think that Vick had absolutely no knowledge of what was happening?


amazing.....

 

[peplaw06]

are there really people who still think that Vick had absolutely no knowledge of what was happening?


amazing.....

WHO SAID THAT?!?!?!:bang2::bang2::bang2::bang2:

amazing...

 

[fortdick]

WHO SAID THAT?!?!?!:bang2::bang2::bang2::bang2:

amazing...

I will stick up for ya. You didn;t say that. You are just saying let the system do its job before judging him.

Sorry, I have already judged him. . . . unless called for the jury pool!

 

[peplaw06]

You asked why everyone was running to judgement. I told you. My point is that you have an interest in not prejudging.

Pray tell, what is your interest in prejudging? Being right??? If that's it, just say it... But proclaiming yourself right at this moment is a tad premature don't you think. Why proclaim yourself right, when you could still be wrong?

Sure I support the system. I have to. It is all we have. But I don;t agree with the principle that he is innocent until proven guilty. If that principle always applied, there would be no need to remand to custody without bail.

Methinks your tune would change if it were you being indicted.

And youand your boss both care about winning. Not so much about the right and wrong of it, as with the winning. You get paid more if you win.

Not really, we get paid up front. Win or lose, we get paid. That's how it has to be. You can't get more money for winning. Ethics 101. you shouldn't need extra incentive to win. It would lead to less than acceptable representation when you don't get paid or don't think you can win.

Have you, or your boss, ever accepted a retainer and then told the client they are guilty as hell and should go to jail?

Not sure where you're going with this, but I've told clients that they are looking at jail time on pleas before. I don't say, "you're guilty." I say this is the best deal we can get, you can take it (i.e. go to jail if that's the case), or we can go to trial.

 

[Green28]

I was checking out Extemeskins to see how they were taking the Vick news over there.

Their poll

81% say he should be suspend

Our poll

55% say he should be suspended.

Now, does that mean that Skins fans are more compassionate towards animals? Or that we just have more persuasive Vick defenders?

That's because the Texas poll had an option (C)...45% voted for the death penalty

 

[Hoofbite]

WHO SAID THAT?!?!?!:bang2::bang2::bang2::bang2:

amazing...

never said you did.....just wondering if there are those who still hold to that thought.


but, just for the fart of it.......do you think he was unaware?

 

[lspain1]

I was checking out Extemeskins to see how they were taking the Vick news over there.

Their poll

81% say he should be suspend

Our poll

55% say he should be suspended.

Now, does that mean that Skins fans are more compassionate towards animals? Or that we just have more persuasive Vick defenders?

OK, I'm going to explain my answer to the poll. It's quite simple. The NFL has a conduct policy that permits Goodell to act for the good of the NFL....FOR REPEATED VIOLATIONS....or CONVICTIONS. Therefore Pac Man and Tank fall under the policy for the NFL to act. Vick is not a repeat offender...and he has not been convicted....therefore the NFL can not act. The NFL must let the justice system proceed to its conclusion.

I consider it a virtual certainty that the Atlanta Falcons (a different entity from the NFL) will not permit Vick to participate in team activities (practice or play football) until this matter is resolved and perhaps not even then. That action has NO bearing on the NFL (even though I am sure it will be coordinated with the League office).

In short, Roger Goodell has no choice in this matter for right now. Those of you who want the NFL to suspend Vick are are not thinking it through. It is no surprise to me that the Extremeskins folks are voting like they are....if they had a thought it would be their first one today. Were the NFL to act now would destroy the confidence of the players and a signifcant fraction of the public as well as opening up the league to lawsuits.

 

[Jaxonsdaddd]

I cant believe there are people out there saying that, "we dont know yet, lets let it play out".

I will go on record right now and say if I get a search warrant on my house next week and find 60 dogs and 30 burried carcasas then you all can call me a dog fighter...

 

[fortdick]

Pray tell, what is your interest in prejudging? Being right??? If that's it, just say it... But proclaiming yourself right at this moment is a tad premature don't you think. Why proclaim yourself right, when you could still be wrong?

I could care less about being right or wrong. I was wrong on the O.J. trial. But I was glad on that because of the threats of riots if he was convicted.

Methinks your tune would change if it were you being indicted.

That is the beauty of it. I will never be indicted. I don;t do anything wrong. I don't even speed in my car. I don't drink, so no drunk driving in my future. I both respect and fear the law. Vick does neither.

Not really, we get paid up front. Win or lose, we get paid. That's how it has to be. You can't get more money for winning. Ethics 101. you shouldn't need extra incentive to win. It would lead to less than acceptable representation when you don't get paid or don't think you can win.

Oh bullocks! You know the more you win the more you can charge. If you win cases, you get to charge more money. If you were working in some nonprofit thing, then I would applaud your altruism, but the fact is, lawyers don;t practice law for the good feeling it gives them.

Does James Sokolove get paid up front, or does he takes cases on a contingency? Just wondering what you say to all that?

Not sure where you're going with this, but I've told clients that they are looking at jail time on pleas before. I don't say, "you're guilty." I say this is the best deal we can get, you can take it (i.e. go to jail if that's the case), or we can go to trial.

Ever had a client so guilty that you thought he should be in jail for the rest of his life? If so, what advice did you give him? Plea for a reduced sentence? I bet you fought tooth and nail, busting that poor prosecutor's butt, trying to get the scumbag out of prison in half the time he deserved.

And that poor prosecutor that went to law school and didn't finish in the upper part of his class and get a job offer from a private firm.

It is all about winning and losing.

 

[03EBZ06]

I will go on record right now and say if I get a search warrant on my house next week and find 60 dogs and 30 burried carcasas then you all can call me a dog fighter...

Yeah, but you live in your property while Vick is claiming that he had no knowledge of dogfighting because he rarely visited that property, which I don't believe for one second.

 

[fortdick]

I cant believe there are people out there saying that, "we dont know yet, lets let it play out".

I will go on record right now and say if I get a search warrant on my house next week and find 60 dogs and 30 burried carcasas then you all can call me a dog fighter...

But what if you were a retirement home for old pitbulls? You just keep them there because they are old and going to die soon. Those graves out back are for the poor little doggies that have passed to the next world.

You wouldn't want people to judge you too early, would ya?

/saracasm