I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

Discussion in 'Overtime Zone' started by TWOK11, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. BlindFaith

    BlindFaith Well-Known Member

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    So no examples. Either fumbles with no contact or ball comes loose after contacting the ground yet they still ruled it a catch.
     
  2. BlindFaith

    BlindFaith Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, that's not the issue. It means the same thing per the case plays. You don't see, but that's ok.

    I think what is more curious is when did they start trying to define what actions could be done while going to the ground and how were they originally stated in the case plays.

    2012 casebook has the case plays about bracing and balancing, the ones you always ignore, but no mention of time being an act common.

    And I can't find any casebook prior to that. I did find the 2008 rule book and I posted that above. But the casebook references aren't there.

    Going to the ground and maintaining possession all the way through has been there, I believe since 98.

    I wish we could see the rule books and case books from 98 on to see just how they have changed.
     
  3. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    The tutorial was specifically made to educate fans on going to the ground and gives two examples: one that's a catch and another that is incomplete.
     
  4. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    A.R. 15.95 in its 2015 version is almost unrecognizable compared to 2014.

    2014
    A.R. 15.95
    Act common to game
    Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
    Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30.
    In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not
    have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.

    2015
    A.R. 15.95
    Does not become runner prior to going to ground
    Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then, still in control of the ball, he reached out for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
    Ruling: Reviewable. Incomplete pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A20.
    In this situation, the receiver had not clearly become a runner before going to the ground. In order to complete the catch, he must maintain control until after his
    initial contact with the ground. The act of reaching out with the ball does not trump the requirement to maintain control of the ball when he lands.
     
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  5. BlindFaith

    BlindFaith Well-Known Member

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    This is what's so frustrating with you. Copy and paste. That's all you do. It's not even remotely what I asked.
     
  6. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    We ALL know Blandino said Dez was going to the ground in the act of catching a pass. That is not in dispute.

    The question is, "How did he make that determination?" You're saying he just sort of decreed it, which makes no sense. In 2014, you didn't know a player was going to the ground in the act of catching the pass until it was first determined that he hadn't already completed the act of catching a pass.

    So familiarize yourself and inform yourself. Watch the tutorial.

    That is a mix of his words and yours. Don't put words in the guy's mouth. Yes, he is talking about something that would establish the receiver as a runner. All that means is he's talking about something that would complete the catch process. Do you realize that's exactly the same thing? Becoming a runner in 2014 simply meant completing the catch process. Upright or falling, it did not matter. Dez was obviously falling, and they were obviously looking at the lunge and the reach. How do you explain this?

    You're thinking that the nature or appearance of the reach itself or the lunge itself is secondary to the fact that it happened when Dez was falling. That's what makes it impossible for you to explain why he he said the reach needed to be with two hands. That statement doesn't fit with your idea of how these plays are ruled. But instead of stopping at that point and wondering why he said it, you just say he was nervous, or that he was talking about something other than what made him overturn the catch.

    I'm keeping it short, so maybe you'll read it.
     
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  7. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    I was addressing what you said in the first line, that the case plays didn't reflect any change in the rules.

    Here you have the very play that most resembles the Dez play. It was changed from complete to incomplete.
     
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  8. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Then why, when he appeared on Game Day Final (1/11) and Total Access (1/12) did Blandino not use that explanation?

    If this was about contact with a defender, why on earth did Blandino never say one word about contact with a defender?
     
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  9. BlindFaith

    BlindFaith Well-Known Member

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    It's not though. 8.12 is almost the exact play. And I know you don't like talking about those two case plays because they support what Blandino has said about gathering themselves.

    I'm done with this until we see the new rule changes.
     
  10. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    Except that Blandino's 2013 video "Explaining the Calvin Johnson rule" is all about the 3-step process, and how that process determines whether the player becomes a runner or is still a receiver and has to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground.
     
  11. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    I don't even know what "those two case plays" refers to, so I'll have to look them up. Thanks for at least giving me the name of one of them.
     
  12. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    These are all from 2014. Of these three, only the last one changed in 2015. Why? How was it different from the other two?

    A.R. 8.12
    GOING TO THE GROUND
    COMPLETE PASS
    First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out.
    Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A3
    The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

    A.R. 8.13
    GOING TO THE GROUND
    COMPLETE PASS
    First-and-10-on B25.
    A1 throws a pass to A2 who is contacted by a defender before he completes the catch at the three-yard line. Despite B2’s contact, A2 keeps his balance, gets both feet down, and lunges over the goal line. The ball comes out as he hits the ground.
    Ruling:Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A3
    The receiver went to the ground as the result of lunging for the goal line, not in the process of making the catch.

    A.R. 15.95
    Act common to game
    Third-and-10 on A20. Pass over the middle is ruled incomplete at the A30. The receiver controlled the pass with one foot down and was then contacted by a defender. As he went to the ground, he got his second foot down and then still in control of the ball he lunged for the line to gain, losing the ball when he landed.
    Ruling: Reviewable. Completed pass. A’s ball first-and-10 on A30.
    In this situation, the act of lunging is not part of the process of the catch. He has completed the time element required for the pass to be complete and does not
    have to hold onto the ball when he hits the ground. When he hit the ground, he was down by contact.
     
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  13. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

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    If you apply the current catch process to all three of those plays, and simply use Item 1 the way it was used up until 2015 (use it only when the catch process wasn't completed), then the Bryant and James plays are catches. The Johnson play happened in the end zone where there would be no football move, so it would be up to the officials' judgment as to whether the time requirement was met.

    All three were originally ruled catches by the field official nearest the play.
     
  14. MarcusRock

    MarcusRock Well-Known Member

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    Right. And here's the quote of him saying it was correct by the rules but that the rule needed to be looked at.

    "I think it was probably the right call technically, according to the language that was in the rule book, but I really think we need to look at that.”

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...g-dez-bryant-catch-reversal-article-1.2078178
     
  15. Mr_C

    Mr_C Carharris2

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    Why would the reach have anything to do with whether he was going to the ground? Why would the reach mean he wasn’t going to the ground the “whole way,” as you say?

    Blandino used the words “more of a football move”. Why would he use those words if any type of move wouldn’t have changed the fact that he was going to the ground?

    Or are you saying it would have?As in he could’ve competed the 3 step process on the way to the ground?

    Or are you saying he wasn’t going to the ground? I know you’re not and If he was than, as you say, no moves matter.

    Why did he say if he would’ve made “a more obvious move” “a reach with two hands” and how would those acts have changed the fact he was going to the ground? Because your stance is that no moves matter on the way to the ground and that the process could’nt be completed. So why was he looking for “a more obvious move”?
     
  16. Mr_C

    Mr_C Carharris2

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    To make it easier for some to not misinterpret the rules? Like confusing the fact that the catch process can be completed while going to the ground while the separate going to the ground is for players who haven’t competed the 3 part process before they hit the ground.
     
  17. Mr_C

    Mr_C Carharris2

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    Good call @MarcusRock !!! The rule didn’t change at all. You’re a genius.
    I expect you will ignore this fact.
     
  18. Mr_C

    Mr_C Carharris2

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    Of course you are. You’ve maintained the rules didn’t change. Now with your far superior reading skills you can see the exact same caseplay from 2014 and 2015 with only one difference. One is a catch and one incomplete.

    The new term—clearly become a runner replaced time for a football move.

    Can you and @MarcusRock please now, at the very least, admit this means the rule did change?
     
  19. Mr_C

    Mr_C Carharris2

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    You’re getting emotional and feisty!! I like it. Now put
    your excellent reading skills to use and read it again. Slowly.

    The committee admits the Dez catch should have stood. Per John Mara.
     
  20. Hostile

    Hostile The Duke

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    Nice to see you BF. I am never, ever going to agree with you or others who think the rule was applied correctly, and I am going to say why up front. To overturn the call on the field there must be irrefutable evidence via replay.

    It was never that. This thread is evidence if nothing else is.
     
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