I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

[robertfchew]

The only similarity between the Dez and Ertz plays is they both lunged for the end zone and lost the ball when it contacted the ground. Ertz had already established himself as a runner prior to going to the ground therefore the ball didn’t have to survive the ground. A so called “football move” goes out the window when a receiver is ruled “going to the ground.” Once a receiver is ruled going to the ground they must complete the process of surviving the ground regardless of making a football move. That’s the part that fans can’t seem to grasp.

Dez established himself as a runner. He secured the ball, switched hands (act common to the game) dove at the end zone (also an act common to the game called advancing the football) Where have I seen the words common to the game and advancing the football???

 

[robertfchew]

The thing that was hard for me to wrap my head around is taking steps vs. falling to the ground. Looking at the Dez catch using the "eyeball" test I would say it's not a catch because the ball hit the ground. But I also can see that Dez was being Dez and biting and scratching for every inch.
I just wish there was a more clear way to establish a WR as a runner. Many fans get confused because a RB can just cross the plane.

and once you have the ball you are a RB. Why do you think cooks getting clear helmet to helmet contact was not a penalty? Just like the qb not being protected if they do the fake run stuff. If the ball is being advanced you are a runner and dez was.

 

[KJJ]

Dez established himself as a runner. He secured the ball, switched hands (act common to the game) dove at the end zone (also an act common to the game called advancing the football) Where have I seen the words common to the game and advancing the football???

He never established himself as a runner. You’re just one of those who’s either in denial or can’t grasp the rule.

 

[slick325]

If the player has taken two steps with the ball and then extends it toward the goal line or 1st down marker...then he obviously has control of the ball and made a catch.

Dez caught it, Jesse James caught it and so do Ertz.

 

[G2]

and once you have the ball you are a RB. Why do you think cooks getting clear helmet to helmet contact was not a penalty? Just like the qb not being protected if they do the fake run stuff. If the ball is being advanced you are a runner and dez was.

Well that's not really the same thing. Once a WR catches the ball they're still not considered a runner yet, no?

 

[G2]

If the player has taken two steps with the ball and then extends it toward the goal line or 1st down marker...then he obviously has control of the ball and made a catch.

Dez caught it, Jesse James caught it and so do Ertz.

Were they legit running steps or was he falling after he went up for the ball? Is there a difference?

 

[KJJ]

Were they legit running steps or was he falling after he went up for the ball? Is there a difference?

They were stumbling steps due to his momentum/body lean taking him to the ground. He was clearly going to the ground. As soon as his feet hit the ground he was falling.

 

[slick325]

Were they legit running steps or was he falling after he went up for the ball? Is there a difference?

Two feet are two feet IMO. Plus, making a conscious effort to reach for the goal line shows control to me.

 

[MarcusRock]

The rule in 2014 didn't say become a runner or make a football move. The 2014 rule said "maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.)."

If the above is met, then contacting the ground is moot. My opinion, which is not singular, is that Dez attempted to advance by stretching to score. Obviously, your opinion is he didn't. That difference of opinion is critical - it means it's not irrefutable evidence and, therefore, the call should stand.

BTW, I'm not contrasting Dez's play vs. Ertz's even though it's the title of this thread. I'm simply arguing that Dez's catch should not have been overturned because it was based on an ambiguous idea of what is an "act common to the game". Had it been ruled incomplete on the field, it should've stood as incomplete.

And this is where the dividing line rests. We've all seen examples of players making obvious reaches for the goal line or 1st down marker, etc. Dez' attempt in no way resembles a demonstrative reach like those. If you look at the rule you quote where you have to have control long enough to advance with it, it doesn't state "attempt" to advance, it says advance, which is execution. I've always said Dez intended to reach and we can see that clearly, but he never executed. This is why every rules guru there was out there (including the ones that made the call) stated that the attempted reach was not one. Do the same "eye test" people are using to say what a catch is and do it with Dez' lunge/reach and every other example you see of one. If you polled people who compared those, would dang near everyone say that Dez' reach was not a reach? This was the point in a past debate where then the football move shifted to another one people think Dez executed (turned shoulders, switched hands, tucked the ball) that apparently happened in a space of milliseconds.

 

[MarcusRock]

Well here's some interesting information. I looked up to see what Blandino and Pereira thought of Jesse James' no-catch. Each of them say that because going to the ground applied he had to survive the ground and agreed it was no catch. Pereira was much more detailed and said, after describing the 3-part process that defines a catch, a direct quote (from 0:30):

"... all of those are out the window. All of those get trumped by going to the ground."

Not only that but he mentions the Dez catch specifically, by saying " ... as with Dez Byrant a couple of years ago, you must hold onto the ball ... "

Watch the video here:



So, so curious what catch supporters think of this.

 

[G2]

They were stumbling steps due to his momentum/body lean taking him to the ground. He was clearly going to the ground. As soon as his feet hit the ground he was falling.

You can really appreciate the falling to the ground in real time.

 

[KJJ]

Two feet are two feet IMO. Plus, making a conscious effort to reach for the goal line shows control to me.

He had control of the ball when he reached for the goal line but the ball came loose when it contacted the ground. Because he was going to the ground the ball had to survive the ground.

 

[KJJ]

You can really appreciate the falling to the ground in real time.

Exactly, you don’t need slow mo replay to see that, at least for those of us who aren’t wearing blinders or are in denial.

 

[glimmerman]

Even the commentator thought it would be reversed based on the way they called the same type play earlier in the season. I figured there would be a controversial play at the end.

 

[robertfchew]

Since the Dez play in 2014 the rule has been clarified. Not every single thing is going to be in the rulebook and I’m not going to waste time arguing what the rulebook says. I’ve done enough of that the past three years.

you won't argue the rules because they don't support your delusions. Keep on thinking that the nfl can do no wrong and its ok they interpret the rules differently on each play.

 

[robertfchew]

He never established himself as a runner. You’re just one of those who’s either in denial or can’t grasp the rule.

Ive explained to you multiple times how you are believing the rule contradicts everything the nfl does. The ball was being advanced in an act of the game. It was a catch there is no argument against it unless you want to say 75% of the nfl calls have been wrong. Either the ball can or cannot move at all. dude last night had it move twice during him going to the ground and it was ruled a catch

 

[Cebrin]

There is video - it's just hard to see unless you are looking at the video in slow motion. In addition there are still shots that show the ball clearly in contact with the ground.

I'd love to see them. It's the only part of that call that infuriated me.

 

[robertfchew]

Well here's some interesting information. I looked up to see what Blandino and Pereira thought of Jesse James' no-catch. Each of them say that because going to the ground applied he had to survive the ground and agreed it was no catch. Pereira was much more detailed and said, after describing the 3-part process that defines a catch, a direct quote (from 0:30):

"... all of those are out the window. All of those get trumped by going to the ground."

Not only that but he mentions the Dez catch specifically, by saying " ... as with Dez Byrant a couple of years ago, you must hold onto the ball ... "

Watch the video here:





So, so curious what catch supporters think of this.

nothing is trumped at all because dez was clearly and I mean indisputable proof he was advancing the ball. You do not switch hands and lunge if you're falling uncontrolled.

 

[KJJ]

you won't argue the rules because they don't support your delusions.

The only one with delusions is you. Your head is full of conspiracy theories.

 

[G2]

Exactly, you don’t need slow mo replay to see that, at least for those of us who aren’t wearing blinders or are in denial.

The Dez catch. When that happened I immediately thought it would get overturned at the time because the ball popped up. So if Dex just wrapped up the ball it's a catch and we live to fight another day with fresh new downs. (Easy as hell for me to say, right?). But the bottom line as @MarcusRock provided is that it's all trumped by going to the ground. End of story.

You know, the more I think about it the more I understand the rule. One, maybe it's not as bad as we all thought. Two, maybe the fans simply need to have it explained to better understand the rule. And three and most important IMO, the coaches and players need to be educated. Because the way I look at it, if these players are informed and understand the rule they'll wrap the ball up better.