I honestly don't get the Zeke and Amari hate

charron

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You're outlining it as though you have to do one or the other. The best offenses can do both pretty well. I have said many times you don't have to be running for 10 ypc in order for it to be effective. You can't honestly think that we can just line up in 5 wide and let Andy Dalton sling it 50 times and that's a formula for a win? Behind this line? Good luck with that. Even if you're only getting 3 yards a pop that's just enough to keep the defense from pinning its ears back and breaking your QB in half. I don't know how it can be explained any more succinctly than that.


I've never said line up in a 5 wide, that is your assumption. I did say we aren't good at running the ball, that's true. Doesn't look like you watch the games much but we aren't moving the ball well for most of these games on the ground. We are obtaining 1st downs through the air even though you are correct it is more dangerous to do so and it is not to the strength of the OL but it does give us the best chance to move the chains and score. i just gave you our entire runs for the Bengals 1st half and we got what less than 20 yards but you ignore that. If the 3 fumbles didn't go our way to give us shorter field position we might have lost to a really bad team and part of that is our inability to run consistently.
 

Oz-of-Cowboy-Country

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Amari Cooper is about 100 yards away from breaking 1,000 yards this season with the majority of it has been from bums behind centers. If he crosses that threshold, he would've crossed it for the last 5 out of 6 years as a starter in the NFL. The only time he didn't do so, he was hurt. Dude has more than earned his money and will be just as good going forward with Dak.

Zeke-I somewhat understand. However, Zeke is playing behind a line that no longer has ANY of his starters. Yesterday was also a prime example of Moore abandoning the run because we were done. This is what happens when you have a poor defense, you have to abandon your winning formula. Without his starting qb, and his offensive line, Zeke is about 200 yards away from getting over 1k and is averaging about 4 yards a carry. I thought he looked very good yesterday. My only issue with him this year has been the fumbles but i feel that's him trying to do too much because the talent around him is very good.

I hope the front office doesn't take the cheese that some fans are trying to sell. Fix this defense, protect your quarterback with a good line and everything else will fall in line.
When things aren't going good we humans begin to point the finger. Soooo, human nature is the reason for the disliking of Amari and Zeke. Thats the same reason some hate C.Williams, J.Smith, C.Auwzie, X.Woods, D.Law and owner Jerry Jones.
 

RonnieT24

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I've never said line up in a 5 wide, that is your assumption. I did say we aren't good at running the ball, that's true. Doesn't look like you watch the games much but we aren't moving the ball well for most of these games on the ground. We are obtaining 1st downs through the air even though you are correct it is more dangerous to do so and it is not to the strength of the OL but it does give us the best chance to move the chains and score. i just gave you our entire runs for the Bengals 1st half and we got what less than 20 yards but you ignore that. If the 3 fumbles didn't go our way to give us shorter field position we might have lost to a really bad team and part of that is our inability to run consistently.

This is a simplistic view given that the fumble return and the long drives and by Cincy and one of our own limited us to two possessions in the entire first half not counting the kneel down. Zeke had 6 carries for 16 yards in the first half. Everybody's favorite backup RB Pollard had 3 carries for 4 yards. Even though we didn't chew up big yardage on the running plays running it did allow for the play action to be effective. The 3 fumbles gave us shorter field position? The third fumble occurred at our 12 yard line.. after which we drove 88 yards for a TD using 7 runs and 7 passes. Can you say "balanced?" The second fumble was returned from our 22 yard line for a TD.. The only one that gave us a short field was the first one at the Cincy 32. Maybe you shouldn't talk about not watching the games if you're not going to watch the games. We ran a total of 48 offensive plays and one of those was a kneel down. We lost time of possession by 9 minutes. We had a total of 16 first downs. You say we did not run consistently.. We ran for 101 yards on 25 totes.. That's 4 yards a pop. Take away the kneel down and it's 102 yards on 24 totes. Every coach in the league will take that. We got 6 first downs running and 10 passing. You're not getting big offensive numbers on 48 offensive snaps very often. The other team had the ball too much for anybody to have a a big game on our offense. But we also did not have a single 3 and out all day. Not one.

My philosophy is simple. You are not going to be successful as an offense if you are good at one thing but ignore the other. Teams that run it well but can't pass fail.. though they fail at a lower rate than teams that pass it well but can't run. I can't make people see the value in having a back that can get my 4 yards a pop behind a line that features 2-3 guys who should be on the practice squad. Or maybe not even in the league at all. The fact that defenses have to respect that ability helps the passing game. If the passing game was better the running game would have a much easier time of it. Teams have largely figured out that Dalton doesn't throw it down the field so they have compressed the field .. the corners and safeties are much closer to the line of scrimmage now.. linebackers have adjusted their drops against us so that running lanes are clogged more easily as well as enabling them to be in the passing lanes for the short throws over the middle. This team needs to stay balanced to have a chance. Yes Dak brought us back in games when we abandoned the run early on but Dalton aint Dak. We have seen no such ability from him. When we fall way behind with Dalton we tend to stay way behind. So our best chance is to mix the pass and the run, keep the chains moving and keep our defense on the sidelines. I know it's not as sexy as slingin it 50 times with these great wide receivers.. but an ugly win beats the hell out of a pretty loss every day of the week for me.
 

Cmac

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That's funny you mention blocking. While we aren't top 10 as a whole Mr badass, Martin, McGovern have all graded top 10 in run blocking. Why is is we need all pro's at every offensive position while other teams skill positions make their guys look so much better with less? Shouldn't have to have an all pro at every OL spot to succeed.
…..who said we need all pros at every position?.....I'm going with what my eyes see......we can go all day on this one, a donkey ain't a racehorse. The School for the Blind says the OC ain't a racehorse, either.
 

charron

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…..who said we need all pros at every position?.....I'm going with what my eyes see......we can go all day on this one, a donkey ain't a racehorse. The School for the Blind says the OC ain't a racehorse, either.

lol we don't have a race horse, more of a quarter (work) horse.
 

armadillooutlaw

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Yeah FF players don't bother to notice that in the past three seasons the top 10 rushing teams have made the playoffs 26 of a possible 30 times. Almost 90%.. Meanwhile the top passing teams are MISSING the playoffs at about 70% clip. As I look at 2020 the top 10 rushing teams are

Titans - division leader
Ravens - in the playoff hunt
Cards - currently #7 in the AFC
Pats - in the hunt but fading
Vikings - in the hunt
Browns - currently the 5th seed in the AFC
Saints - division leader
Rams - division leader
Eagles -
Packers - currently the #1 seed in the NFC

So basically of the top 10 the only one not in the playoff hunt is the Eagles.. and we all know thanks to the putrid division they actually are, but I refuse to acknowledge it. 4 division leaders and 5 in the running for the playoffs.

Now the leading passing teams.

Chiefs - #1 seed in the AFC
Packers - #1 seed in the NFC
Bills - #4 seed in the AFC
Chargers- uh no.
Texans - See the Chargers
Falcons - LOL!
Seahawks - #5 seed
Colts - division leader
Cowboys - Really?
Lions - not even..

So the best passing teams have 5 teams in the playoffs and 5 not even in the conversation. My conclusion from this is .. run the damn ball.. even if you're really good at passing .. you still need to be able to run it .. The Chiefs have the best QB in the league but still manage to at least be middle of the pack (#17) running it.. They also average 4.5 ypc so they are effective at it when they do run it. Again it's not about how MUCH you run it.. it's about how effective you are at it when you do.
Right. Even with the Chiefs not running a ton, Reid uses the short passing game to the same effect kinda like NE would when they had Brady.
Running the ball/having a balanced, ball control-style offense is a long-proven winning formula.
 

RonnieT24

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Right. Even with the Chiefs not running a ton, Reid uses the short passing game to the same effect kinda like NE would when they had Brady.
Running the ball/having a balanced, ball control-style offense is a long-proven winning formula.

What I struggle with is how people who seem to actually know football can then turn around and declare that if the running game isn't eating up big chunks of yardage then you should simply stop running. This is football 101.. At least at the NFL level you CANNOT be one-dimensional no matter how good you might be at your particular dimension of choice. The 49ers lost the Super Bowl despite an overpowering running attack because their QB pissed down his leg in the 4th quarter. Had he simply been "okay" as opposed to stinking up the joint they win that that game by 10 points. Ditto the Falcons against NE... All they had to do once they got up 28-3 was just keep running the ball. They didn't even need another first down. They just needed to move the ball a little and eat the clock and they're hoisting the Lombardi. Instead they decide to keep throwing it .. suffer a couple of untimely sacks including sack fumble while leaving plenty of time for the Pats to finally get THEIR act together.. As a result THEY wrested the prize for the stupidest coaching decision in the history of the Super Bowl away from Pete Carroll and his bunch.
 

ICP

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I'm not a bug fan of either but I don't think Amari is as bad as many say. Zeke on the other hand is a total waste of salary cap space IMHO. Got his money and now mails it it.
 

LACowboysFan1

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Money does get on the field, or at least on the roster. The contract can't be erased, as you say, which means Zeke can't be cut, even if his play falls off a cliff (not saying it has). Yeah, he might get fewer snaps, but he still takes up a valuable roster spot.


That's totally off my point. Don't know how I can explain it any clearer, but let me try one more time:

Let's say you could magically exchange me, a 65 year old guy with bad knees, for Zeke, with the same contract. So by your reasoning, just because I get $15 million a year, I should be one of if not the top running backs in the NFL. That's not the way it works. The money he gets is entirely separate for HOW the player plays.

If you still don't get my point, sorry, I can't explain it any better....
 

Thomas82

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Dude it's not worth the effort trying to understand haters. Hate is not a rational emotion and it is almost never based on logic or reason. Cooper and Zeke are both very good NFL players.. who in the estimation of some internet experts make too much money.. never mind the fact that the reason they make so much money is that people pay truckloads of cash to watch them play. So by watching them play, the haters are helping to justify their paychecks. I don't think the front office pays any attention to what these whiny fans say. Nor should it. We fans have a right to piss and moan about this or that.. But we don't get a vote on how the team is built or who gets paid what. Like you my only issue with Zeke has been the fumbles.. and I agree that in most cases he's gotten caught up trying to do too much. When he just focuses on doing his job and only his job he's been fine. Even the last one against Washington he got caught trying to reach the ball to the sticks when it really wasn't necessary. It was going to be 2nd and less than 1 I think.. He looked really good last night and had we been able to keep the game closer (thanks defense) I have no doubt he was on his way to well over 100 yards. There was more than one 3rd and short play where he got zero blocking but bulled and pulled the defense for the first down anyway. That's what I love about that kid.. I just wish Moore would scheme up something other than the delay up the middle for him. With the line being where it is, that is just sacrificing Zeke to the lions, the ones in the Bible, not in Detroit.

:hammer::hammer:
 

jjktkk

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Really? So now you're picking out one stat instead of one season to prove your point?

:facepalm:
Are you just becoming a fan of football? How do you not understand the importance of lost fumbles and how it affects the outcome of a game? Especially given the fact that fumbling should not be a chronic issue to the 2nd high paid rb in the league, who is also one of the leaders of the team. Fumbling is not just some stat.
 

tm1119

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It’s not 1999 anymore, 1,000 yards isn’t an impressive threshold...with that said Coop is overpaid, but the least of our worries. He’s a very good reliable WR, but he’s not the elite, top 10, game changing WR like he’s paid to be. But again, Coop’s contract probably isn’t even in the top 10 worries for this franchise so not sure why anyone would be complaining.

Zeke is nothing but average at this point though. He has no burst to break plays and he can’t make anyone miss. He’s turned in a 4 yards and a cloud of dust type RB, nothing like what he looked like in 2018. And then there’s the fumbles....basically you could replace Zeke with Pollard and a 3rd round pick and there would be zero difference in the offense. Instead he’s taking up a critical chunk of cash
 

Doomsday

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They are being paid to be superstars not above average 1000 yard players.

I don't think either one has lived up to the dollars yet.
 

JD_KaPow

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That's totally off my point. Don't know how I can explain it any clearer, but let me try one more time:

Let's say you could magically exchange me, a 65 year old guy with bad knees, for Zeke, with the same contract. So by your reasoning, just because I get $15 million a year, I should be one of if not the top running backs in the NFL. That's not the way it works. The money he gets is entirely separate for HOW the player plays.

If you still don't get my point, sorry, I can't explain it any better....
I have no idea how you could get that from what I said. I said the contract gets him on the roster, which is true, and gets him on the field, which for all practical purposes it will. I didn't say anything about his performance.

Of course how much he gets paid is separate from how well he plays. That's true but uninteresting.

In your example, if you had Zeke's contract, I (as the team owner) would be completely screwed. I can't cut you, because the cap hit is astronomical. So I have to keep you on my roster, whether I play you or not. So you're taking up enormous amounts of cap space and you're taking up a valuable roster spot and giving me nothing in return.

What you originally said was, "So what do fans want to do? Sit him? That's great, let's waste 15 million dollars this year because he's not tearing the league apart." This is the sunk-cost fallacy. The money is gone (as you say) no matter what performance he gives you. If the team is better with him sitting, then you should sit him. But whether you play him or sit him, you've wasted $15 million and a roster spot if he's not making the team as good or better than alternative uses of that $15M would have. And you can't fix it, because you can't cut him.
 

mattjames2010

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The fanboying over a pretty average RB is odd to me. You don't have to love him just because he has a star on his helmet.

And LOL at people saying Jaylon Smith is also a "fall guy", not that he's freakin' terrible with non-existent instincts. The fanboy nonsense needs called out more on here.
 

Tussinman

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Amari Cooper is about 100 yards away from breaking 1,000 yards this season with the majority of it has been from bums behind centers. If he crosses that threshold, he would've crossed it for the last 5 out of 6 years as a starter in the NFL. The only time he didn't do so, he was hurt. Dude has more than earned his money and will be just as good going forward with Dak.
Agreed on Amari. At worst you can argue where paying him to be top 5 but he's only 8th or 9th best.

That's hardly a concern worth complaining about (Amari being only the 9th best WR in the NFL instead of the 5th best is not even a top 100 concern with this team right now). Reminds me of when fans where complaining about Tyron not being #1 LT in the league in 2017-2019 but he was still the #2 or #3 best in the entire NFC which is still really freakin good
 

mattjames2010

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Also people this excited about Zeke and Cooper getting 1,000 yards while making very little difference for their contracts.

But hey, they are selling jerseys. CeeDee Lamb will be the same. Who cares about this garbage defense when we have skill players...
 
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