Impressed with T.O.'s pregame speech?

LaTunaNostra

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JustSayNotoTO;1081467 said:
He hasnt done anything to love either.

Exactly.

The constant furor around him has translated into zip.

And it isn't about "hate", it's about honesty.

I think so many folks were so against him to begin with, they guility over-compensated and now refuse to view his performance the way they do every other player.

I always considered him both nuts and detrimental to his teams' solidarity, but I was not in that over-the top hate camp, so maybe it's easier for me to say what I think than others who bashed him mercilessly and now feel regret.

It's not about what the media says anymore, it's about what Owens does or doesn't do.

Just like Drew Bledsoe, or Bill Parcells (both who are being called out here today in spades)..Terrel Owens is NOT beyond criticism.

Or is he?
 

SultanOfSix

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JustSayNotoTO;1081506 said:
Stop the praise until he starts earning his money.

Why? Are you going to start calling him a thief?

Just earlier today you were blaming Bledsoe for not getting the ball to him. Now, are you changing your tune?

He can only catch balls that are thrown to him and do what the coaches tell him to do. As far as I know, he's done most of both. So, what is the issue again?
 

WV Cowboy

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JustSayNotoTO;1081506 said:
Stop the praise until he starts earning his money.
Was I praising him?

Maybe I was, not sure, but not much.

Just let the guy play.
 

Cochese

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SultanOfSix;1081516 said:
Why? Are you going to start calling him a thief?

Just earlier today you were blaming Bledsoe for not getting the ball to him. Now, are you changing your tune?

He can only catch balls that are thrown to him and do what the coaches tell him to do. As far as I know, he's done most of both. So, what is the issue again?


Except for that BLATANT drop he had yesterday across the middle, you might be right.
 

Dave_in-NC

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SultanOfSix;1081516 said:
Why? Are you going to start calling him a thief?

Just earlier today you were blaming Bledsoe for not getting the ball to him. Now, are you changing your tune?

He can only catch balls that are thrown to him and do what the coaches tell him to do. As far as I know, he's done most of both. So, what is the issue again?

He could also work to get open. I have yet to see that. All Wrs do it.
 

SultanOfSix

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Dave_in-NC;1081534 said:
He could also work to get open. I have yet to see that. All Wrs do it.

LMAO. There have been numerous times where he has been open, but the ball never got to him.

This comment is a joke right?
 

LaTunaNostra

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Chocolate Lab;1081492 said:
Great posting, Herms.

Steve Dennis is on the radio saying he's hearing from some on the team that Owens was loafing some routes and ad-libbing others yesterday.

Well, that's interesting CL, but to be fair, I'll wait to see if someone can point out just what those plays were.

All I know is he has not impressed me over four games, at ALL. I realize that "The Emperor Has No Clothes" is the shout no one wants to hear - too much money and emotion aready tied up in this venture, but it's even worse to pretend he's still the best receiver in the game when he may not be. THAT is what I see as unfair to Owens, because when the truth sinks in, he'll be the devil incarnate.

And if you notice, Parcells even said at his PC today that there seemed to be a less-than-full understanding of the offense from TO, and that it showed up a little yesterday.

What does HE know? ;)

Galloway heard the same thing about the ad-libbing from his scout for a neutral team, but I know anything he says, even if true, will be immediately discounted. :)

Well, Randy does have an agenda, so serves him right if he's right and no one believes him.

But sure, I expect to be roundly castigated as a 'hater' for daring mention TO has not yet paid off as advertised.:lmao:
 

Dave_in-NC

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SultanOfSix;1081537 said:
LMAO. There have been numerous times where he has been open, but the ball never got to him.

This comment is a joke right?

No its not. Instead of making it all about Bledsoe (which some of it is) the WRs can take some heat to.
Owens over the middle just yesterday, suddenly he had no arms.
Owens in the endzone, running along side the DB.
Some times they have to adjust or work to get open.
Show me where you have seen that from owens.
Glenn, Whitten and even Crayton did that yesterday.
 

Chocolate Lab

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You could point out that Owens had dirty fingernails and get jumped on as a "hater" by some people. ;)

But really, this isn't going to get any better as long as he's here. What we see on these boards is just what happens in real life. Some love Owens for his admirable qualities, while others hate him for his less-than-admirable ones... Just like on the teams he's played for.
 

SultanOfSix

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Dave_in-NC;1081550 said:
No its not. Instead of making it all about Bledsoe (which some of it is) the WRs can take some heat to.
Owens over the middle just yesterday, suddenly he had no arms.
Owens in the endzone, running along side the DB.
Some times they have to adjust or work to get open.
Show me where you have seen that from owens.
Glenn, Whitten and even Crayton did that yesterday.

Perhaps you didn't see the play where he slowed down, and then ran passed his cover guy, only to have Bledsoe short-arm it and throw the ball into the hands of the defensive back. So, instead of having a touchdown, we had another interception.

Perhaps you didn't see the play where Owens was wide open in the in the Jags game and Bledsoe failed to see him.

Owens is known for having the occasional dropsies. He did have one which he should have caught. But, the alligator arms incident was another badly thrown ball by Bledsoe. Too far in front.

I'm not the one claiming Owens hasn't been open. You're the one who stated that. All I have to do is show that he has, which I've done.
 

Dave_in-NC

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SultanOfSix;1081580 said:
Perhaps you didn't see the play where he slowed down, and then ran passed his cover guy, only to have Bledsoe short-arm it and throw the ball into the hands of the defensive back. So, instead of having a touchdown, we had another interception.

Perhaps you didn't see the play where Owens was wide open in the in the Jags game and Bledsoe failed to see him.

Owens is known for having the occasional dropsies. He did have one which he should have caught. But, the alligator arms incident was another badly thrown ball by Bledsoe. Too far in front.

I'm not the one claiming Owens hasn't been open. You're the one who stated that. All I have to do is show that he has, which I've done.

I'm not claiming he hasn't been open (and missed) either. I hate to see him pout on the sidelines. I can show you a hundred plays on any given Sunday that receivers are open and missed by any different number of QBs. part of the game.
what I can't show you is a bunch of those WRs pouting.

Like Nastratuna said, he hasn't lived up to the billing (maybe yet) either.
 

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LaTunaNostra;1081479 said:
Part of the problem is Bledsoe under pressure, but part is very possibly that TO is not what he was. And he's the only one can prove he is.....

I've seen you state something similar a few times, that TO is not what he was.

I have to say that after all the hammy stuff and the Minnesota game in the preseason I was a little nervous that TO might not have the same explosiveness that he once had. But after seeing him in the Jacksonville game subsequently, it looks like he has still got it. That spinning acrobatic catch in the endzone against Jacksonville was pretty good and from what I have seen he can still get separation. He was open during both of Bledsoe's interceptions deep.

Anyway, I'm just wondering why you are questioning whether he still has it. Now, he might need to polish up on the offense a bit, but I think the physical skills are still there.
 

rojan

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mickgreen58;1081219 said:
Didnt get to hear it, is there a transcript available?

Did Newman acually say that about the 3 INTs by Bledsoe
 

LenS

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I think that TO is up to his usual manipulative ways. The physical talent is still there. He's just holding back on it until Bledsoe is benched.

When he came to Philly, McNabb was ecstatic about having TO so TO put out the full effort. But Bledsoe made it clear that he wouldn't put up with the TO garbage that occurred in TO's year in Philly after the Super Bowl. At that point, Bledsoe became the enemy to TO. Unlike the start in Philly, where TO spent every possible moment working out with McNabb etal., TO went into his Garcia slowdown mode. He milked his "injury" so long that Bledsoe had very little time to work on that all important QB-WR timing with TO in the preseason.

And in the games, he's not doing the little things that help a struggling QB. When a pass is underthrown, he doesn't come back to knock down the potential interception. When a quick timing pass is thrown over the middle, he either alligator arms it or runs just a tad slower than normal, making the QB look bad when the ball flies out of reach. Even at a slightly slower speed, he's fast enough to get ahead of the defender a little bit, but running a tad slower than the QB expects means that QB looks stupid for throwing too far ahead. Worse, if another defender is downfield from that spot, it looks like he threw a stupid interception. And if TO runs a slightly different pattern than called for, he can get credit for being wide open but be in a spot where an immobile QB under great pressure won't have time to readjust to. By running his cut at a slightly different angle, he can again get his QB looking like an idiot.

Another trick is to follow any catch with a drop to undermine the QB's confidence in throwing to him. Then when the QB doesn't throw to him, TO complains about not getting the ball.

Any normal receiver wouldn't do these things because he wants to win. But TO is a mental case who craves the attention and enjoys showing that he's the boss. My guess is that his play will improve drastically if Romo gets the job. Then he'll go gangbusters to make his QB look good (ala 2004 in Philly) and he'll loudly proclaim look how good it is now -- making it clear that it was all Bledsoe's fault.
 

LaTunaNostra

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dboyz;1081614 said:
Anyway, I'm just wondering why you are questioning whether he still has it. Now, he might need to polish up on the offense a bit, but I think the physical skills are still there.

TO at 85% is still the best receiver in the league, imo. I had a discussion with a fan here a year or so ago who took badly my contention that Randy Moss wasn't nearly the receiver Owens was. So my opinion of TO's talent and ability is extremely high.

I've watched him as a wco receiver for years, like the rest of us, and think three factors are impacting him negatively right now. The playbook, his mastery of it, and his physical status.

Much of Owens' amazing capacity for YAC came on his understanding of the wco passing system, not just his strength. Of course, when he was signed here it was agreed an elite receiver can be effective in any system, but our playbook does not speak highly to Owens' skills, imo. He was adept working in an O that by nature spread the defense out, and allowed him to weed out double coverage (and also had the byproduct of preventing box stacking). I think TO had a great grasp of both the horizontal and vertical stretch, and you seldom saw what happened on that crossing pattern yesterday.

Bledsoe does not excel at slants, hitches, shallow crosses, the kind of plays that Owens would make 50 yards out of from 7 or 8...that was his amazing gift..but wco qbs usually have great touch as well as appropriate velocity, and at short range Bledsoe puts too many behind a receiver, or is just off enough to allow the defender to close.

I don't think we are doing enough of what TO does well. AKA slant throws that don't hit the recevier as he slants inwards, but lead him and stretch him out. Nobody is going to get YAC that way. Bledsoe's quick outs look too high, and turn-ins are below the belt. We need to run plays that actually dictate the coverages, not the other way around, but that's another story.

It's not on TO that Bledsoe can't consistently make the throws that Owens fed off for years, but it's a reason to NOT be optimistic about the future.

The second issue seems to be Owen's own timing and less than perfect understanding of his assignments .. the 'polishing' aspect as you said. That should have come in preseason but injury stalled it. Timing depend on running precise routes, and I don't think Owens is entirely comfy there yet. The drops signify that to me. I don't see TO in motion that much, do you? Or on delay routes? I take it as evidence that he's not fully integrated yet.

Thirdly, from years of watching him, I think I know what his physical capablities are. He could break tackles like none other, and was powerful enough to be able to do it when he was not at top speed. You can never get a good enough view on tv to feel sure of how a receiver drives off on his release, or if the guy drove the right foot on a rip move, but you can gauge overall strength and speed, and from what I've seen, whether through injury or age, Owens does not look like the same specimen on the field he used to be. He's far from approaching 'average' but that groin issue he had last season followed by the hammy make for nagging, sapping muscular effects that effect explosiveness, especially after age 30.

That's what I feel his physical 'decline' center on - he isn't as explosive as he was. That microsecond difference in response time that distinguished 'great' from 'effective'.

My overall feeling over four games is he is not the Terrell Owens of olde. I'm not a doctor, not a football player, but I've watched enough primo athletes on the field over time to feel comfortable saying it looks to me like a guy's lost a step, or half of one. (we sure all saw it with Key - who is still a very effective receiver) The look of Owens amazing body dispels the diagnosis, but I also think his body type isn't one that wears as well as a Rice or Holt or Harrison.

The broken finger--that doesn't help either, but it's a minor nuisance that will clear up.

I just don't look at him and see the player he was in Philly in 04 and the first half of 05. That he could be close to it again with more familiarity with the Dallas passing O and with his own 'polishing', I don't doubt. But I think there's been some physical fall off that has to be expected at his age....an overall falloff that CAN, I have to add, be compensated for with vet experience.
 

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LenS;1081765 said:
I think that TO is up to his usual manipulative ways. The physical talent is still there. He's just holding back on it until Bledsoe is benched.

When he came to Philly, McNabb was ecstatic about having TO so TO put out the full effort. But Bledsoe made it clear that he wouldn't put up with the TO garbage that occurred in TO's year in Philly after the Super Bowl. At that point, Bledsoe became the enemy to TO. Unlike the start in Philly, where TO spent every possible moment working out with McNabb etal., TO went into his Garcia slowdown mode. He milked his "injury" so long that Bledsoe had very little time to work on that all important QB-WR timing with TO in the preseason.

And in the games, he's not doing the little things that help a struggling QB. When a pass is underthrown, he doesn't come back to knock down the potential interception. When a quick timing pass is thrown over the middle, he either alligator arms it or runs just a tad slower than normal, making the QB look bad when the ball flies out of reach. Even at a slightly slower speed, he's fast enough to get ahead of the defender a little bit, but running a tad slower than the QB expects means that QB looks stupid for throwing too far ahead. Worse, if another defender is downfield from that spot, it looks like he threw a stupid interception. And if TO runs a slightly different pattern than called for, he can get credit for being wide open but be in a spot where an immobile QB under great pressure won't have time to readjust to. By running his cut at a slightly different angle, he can again get his QB looking like an idiot.

Another trick is to follow any catch with a drop to undermine the QB's confidence in throwing to him. Then when the QB doesn't throw to him, TO complains about not getting the ball.

Any normal receiver wouldn't do these things because he wants to win. But TO is a mental case who craves the attention and enjoys showing that he's the boss. My guess is that his play will improve drastically if Romo gets the job. Then he'll go gangbusters to make his QB look good (ala 2004 in Philly) and he'll loudly proclaim look how good it is now -- making it clear that it was all Bledsoe's fault.

:lmao2:
 

LaTunaNostra

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LenS;1081765 said:
I think that TO is up to his usual manipulative ways. The physical talent is still there. He's just holding back on it until Bledsoe is benched.

When he came to Philly, McNabb was ecstatic about having TO so TO put out the full effort. But Bledsoe made it clear that he wouldn't put up with the TO garbage that occurred in TO's year in Philly after the Super Bowl. At that point, Bledsoe became the enemy to TO. Unlike the start in Philly, where TO spent every possible moment working out with McNabb etal., TO went into his Garcia slowdown mode. He milked his "injury" so long that Bledsoe had very little time to work on that all important QB-WR timing with TO in the preseason.

And in the games, he's not doing the little things that help a struggling QB. When a pass is underthrown, he doesn't come back to knock down the potential interception. When a quick timing pass is thrown over the middle, he either alligator arms it or runs just a tad slower than normal, making the QB look bad when the ball flies out of reach. Even at a slightly slower speed, he's fast enough to get ahead of the defender a little bit, but running a tad slower than the QB expects means that QB looks stupid for throwing too far ahead. Worse, if another defender is downfield from that spot, it looks like he threw a stupid interception. And if TO runs a slightly different pattern than called for, he can get credit for being wide open but be in a spot where an immobile QB under great pressure won't have time to readjust to. By running his cut at a slightly different angle, he can again get his QB looking like an idiot.

Another trick is to follow any catch with a drop to undermine the QB's confidence in throwing to him. Then when the QB doesn't throw to him, TO complains about not getting the ball.

Any normal receiver wouldn't do these things because he wants to win. But TO is a mental case who craves the attention and enjoys showing that he's the boss. My guess is that his play will improve drastically if Romo gets the job. Then he'll go gangbusters to make his QB look good (ala 2004 in Philly) and he'll loudly proclaim look how good it is now -- making it clear that it was all Bledsoe's fault.

Len, it's your first post..so..welcome. :)

But I think you're off on TO pulling anything as Machiavellian as trying to get Bledsoe replaced with Romo by not giving it his all.

It's just not in his nature, imo, not to try to look his best at all times. In other words, if he ever decides to sabotage Bledsoe, he won't be doing it at his own expense. He'll just go about it like he did with Garcia and NcNabb.

Like the "TO is faking injury" thing the press ran with this summer, I think your take is impossible to substantiate and at this point, unfair.

Also, no way an act like that could escape Bill Parcells.

Not for a minute.
 

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LaTunaNostra;1081314 said:
I don't want to hear his name again until he starts contributing.

He's contributing more than I guess you'll ever know simply by being on the field and commanding a double team practically every snap.
 

LaTunaNostra

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Bleu Star;1081953 said:
He's contributing more than I guess you'll ever know simply by being on the field and commanding a double team practically every snap.

That helps, but is not enough to merit a 25 million dollar contract, which of course is Owens point.

First he needs to learn the playbook inside out. Second he needs to develop chemistry and timing with Bledsoe..something that can be accomplished in practices to a great extent.

Then he needs to accept his 'share' of balls without complaint, and to hold onto the ones that do come his way.

He is not 'the' offense here....not even 'the first among equals'. He is another 'weapon' who could and should become the nominal and actual 'go-to' once he's completely healthy and fully integrated into the offensive system.

Right now he is no more than JJ, Terry, or Jason, and I fail to see why he should be treated like any sort of saviour when he just hasn't merited any special consideration off any special play.
 
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