Irvin Deserves The Hall

rcaldw

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I am a Michael Irvin fan. (2nd only to Aikman in my admiration when it comes to the 90's)

I am convinced that the "Triplets" all deserve the Hall of Fame.

Michael Irvin was the emotion, he was the bravado, he was the OUTWARDLY fierce competitor, of the 3.

All 3 were in a class of their own.
All 3 were fierce competitors
All 3 were winners
All 3 deserve the hall

Everytime that the Cowboys met the Niners in a big game (with the possible exception of 94), Aikman and Irvin outperformed Young and Rice.

When Irvin went down with his career ending injury, the dynasty was officially over.

I also appreciated, as an Aikman fan, Irvin's unselfish loyalty and praise toward his QB and his running back.

Off the field problems? Yes. But a big heart? Yes. A great teammate? Yes
A winner? Yes.

Irvin needs to go in this time.
 

EastDallasCowboy

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While I agree, the best argument I've read was from 2233boys in another thread. I'll repost below, with credit to him.

My question would be what wide receiver, not named Jerry Rice, didn't Irvin compare to? The 1990's All Decade Team consisted of four wide receivers. The first team consisted of Jerry Rice and Chris Carter and the second team of Tim Brown and you guessed it, one Michael Irvin, “The Playmaker”.

Irvin in the 90's amassed 10,872 yards, in 139 games he averaged about 78 yards a game, with 58 touchdowns, five pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Tim Brown in the 90's amassed 10211 yards, in 159 games he averaged about 64 yards per game, with 70 touchdowns, seven pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Chris Carter in the 90's amassed 10,238 yards, in 156 games he averaged 65 yards a game, with 95 touchdowns, seven pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Jerry Rice in the 90's amassed 12,078 yards, in 146 games he averaged 82 yards a game, with 103 touchdowns, eight pro bowls, and eight 1000 yard seasons.

Andre Reed in the 90's amassed 8687 yards, in 147 games averaging 60 yards a game, with 55 touchdowns five pro bowls, four 1000 yard seasons.

Now Irvin wasn’t the scoring machine that Rice, Carter and Brown were, and as we all know that was Emmitt’s job. So all of them but Reed have more touchdowns. I am sure most of us could agree that Jerry Rice was the best of the bunch, and most if not all of us would even say he was the best wide receiver ever. Looking at the numbers, how exactly doesn't Irvin compare stat wise with the likes of Reed, Brown and Carter? To me, Reed is a non factor compared to the other three. For pities sake he only ever had four 1000 yard seasons. So for all intents and purposes his part in this discussion is over.

In almost 20 fewer games then Carter and 20 fewer games than Brown, Mike has them beat in almost every stat. He had more yards, averaged more per catch, averaged more per game, and he is the only one of them (not Named Jerry Rice) to record over 1600 yards receiving . . . In fact, now that I think about it, I am pretty shocked Irvin wasn’t a first team wide receiver with Rice on the 1990's All Decade Team.

The pundits will say that Brown, Carter, and Rice are all first ballot guys. You know I can’t argue that, I agree they are, but why isn’t Mike. All three played much longer than Mike, so maybe the whole longevity question comes to play, but Irvin played for 12 years. A very long career by most standards. Irvin also averaged 902 yards per year in his career. Brown and Carter 878 and 869 respectively. Given that, and that Mike played between four to six full season less than Carter (4) and Brown (6), it could be speculated that Irvin would have surpassed both in yardage had he not been forced to retire due to the injury in the Philly game. I don’t get the reluctance against adding Irvin to the Hall of Fame. Someone please explain this to me.

Now on to Monk, aside from Monk leading the League in most Receptions for a period of four years before being passed by Rice in 1995, the fact is that Art Monk just doesn’t measure up to Michael Irvin. Monk had five 1000 yard seasons was a pro bowler only three times, played in 224 career games and only amassed 817 more yards than Irvin. That amounts to four more full 16 game seasons. In those four additional seasons he only had three more touchdowns than Irvin and only averaged 13.5 yards a catch. They were both all decade players Monk for the 80's and Irvin for the 90's but Irvin clearly was the more dominant player in every aspect . . .

That's the best argument I've seen yet.
 

windward

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EastDallasCowboy;1306612 said:
While I agree, the best argument I've read was from 2233boys in another thread. I'll repost below, with credit to him.



That's the best argument I've seen yet.
Exactly. It's a damn shame if Irvin does not get in this time.
 

ReturnToGlory

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It's a shame that we are even having this discussion. Another sign that the the hall is a joke.
 

DWhite Fan

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I am all for Irvin getting in, but I also have been waiting a long time for Drew Pearson to get in. I totally believe that there is a conspiracy to allow as few Cowboys in as possible. Irvin will probably get snubbed again.......:bang2:
 

step

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I never understand the debate. Irvin's numbers, as very nicely described here, are clearly HOF material. Heck, Keyshawn will probably get in someday, so how can anyone dispute Irvin's HOF credentials?? Its so obvious Irvin's mouth and off the field issues affect his induction and that is so totally wrong. Irvin is sometimes his own worst enemy, but I really hope he gets in this year. And I hope Aikman and the rest help him by pushing hard.
 

2233boys

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There has been no justifiable reason for leaving Irvin out of the Hall of Fame thus far. A case for him to be in the Hall of Fame, is easy to make, making a case for him not to be in the Hall of Fame is hard. That is why the selectors don't own up to their votes. They know they have no credible reason to exclude him. I say again, if Carter and Brown are first ballot Hall of Famers and I think they are, then so is Irvin. He outperformed them throughout the 90's. What is so amazing about that is that all during that time the Cowboys were a run first offense. Give them a heavy dose of Emmitt loosen them up and start throwing to Irvin, then salt the game away with more Emmitt.
 

Rampage

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ReturnToGlory;1306622 said:
It's a shame that we are even having this discussion. Another sign that the the hall is a joke.
irvin was a crackhead, thats why he won't get in
 

Doomsday

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bigbadroy;1306955 said:
irvin was a crackhead, thats why he won't get in

Didnt stop them from putting LT in. I love how members of the media love to play judge and executioner. They need to get off the high horses and do their jobs.
 

stag hunter

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1. Irvin didn't revolutionize his position the way LT did
2. Unless you are talking about a 1990s only hall of fame i dont see why its necessary to isolate all the stats to that decade
3. Irvin will make it in. His off the field transgressions likely cost him his chance to get in on the first ballot, which doesn't seem unfair to me. He might have to wait, but he'll get in
 

Tra_Col99

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It's kind of funny to read threads on here and ExtremeSkins regarding the HOF. Here, Irvin is (or should be) a lock this year with a weak class. On ES, Monk is (or should be) a lock this year with a weak class. Also, on both sites the rival wide receiver has no chance this year.

I think I'll venture over to other fans sites to get a better idea of what the chances are of Irvin and Monk. (Both I feel deserve to be in)
 

Chuck 54

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rcaldw;1306605 said:
Michael Irvin was the emotion, he was the bravado, he was the OUTWARDLY fierce competitor, of the 3.

When Irvin went down with his career ending injury, the dynasty was officially over.

I also appreciated Irvin's unselfish loyalty and praise toward his QB and his running back.

Off the field problems? Yes. But a big heart? Yes. A great teammate? Yes

Unfortunately, nothing above has anything to do with the HOF voting other than the part in Bold, a negative.

I hope he gets in, but it won't surprise me at all if he doesn't....he has the stats to compare with some other HOF WRs, but he wasn't the best WR of his own time, which explains his lack of All-Pro selections. Also, WR stats have to be looked at carefully as the NFL becomes more and more a passing league...WR's of today will indeed put up bigger numbers than some old timers like Bob Hayes could ever have dreamed of simply because it's the style of play.

I think it's unfair to compare all future WR's to Jerry Rice, but don't be surprised if Irvin doesn't make it, and it will have nothing to do with Cowboys bias.

That said, Good Luck, Mr. Irvin.
 

Rampage

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Doomsday;1307054 said:
Didnt stop them from putting LT in. I love how members of the media love to play judge and executioner. They need to get off the high horses and do their jobs.
irvin should've been smarter off the field
 

rcaldw

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wayne_motley;1307109 said:
Unfortunately, nothing above has anything to do with the HOF voting other than the part in Bold, a negative.

I hope he gets in, but it won't surprise me at all if he doesn't....he has the stats to compare with some other HOF WRs, but he wasn't the best WR of his own time, which explains his lack of All-Pro selections. Also, WR stats have to be looked at carefully as the NFL becomes more and more a passing league...WR's of today will indeed put up bigger numbers than some old timers like Bob Hayes could ever have dreamed of simply because it's the style of play.

I think it's unfair to compare all future WR's to Jerry Rice, but don't be surprised if Irvin doesn't make it, and it will have nothing to do with Cowboys bias.

That said, Good Luck, Mr. Irvin.

My post wasn't intended to make a statistical case for Irvin. I could do that, and others have done a good job of that, as has been included in this thread. I was simply voicing more of a "heart" perspective of it, what he meant to me as a fan, and what I think he meant to that great team, than a "head" perspective and the quoting of stats.

I think stats are overrated anyway. Always have. The best stats don't equate to the best player. Michael Irvin is a Hall of Famer.

By the way, in answer to another post in this thread, not a big deal, but I don't believe that the Cowboys of the 90's were a "run first team". I think Norv Turner should know best about 1992-93 at least, and he says that the pass was often used to open up the running game.

The fact is, it was a BALANCED offense. That changed a little with the 1994 season and beyond, and in my opinion we were not nearly as effective. The stats always looked pretty much the same, but I always thought that Ernie Zampese was not as good a play caller as Norv was. Ernie would be more prone to "run, run, run" or "pass, pass, pass" than Turner. Norv mixed it up more and kept teams off balance more. Just my opinion.
 

stag hunter

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Doomsday;1307054 said:
Didnt stop them from putting LT in. I love how members of the media love to play judge and executioner. They need to get off the high horses and do their jobs.

They did, that's why Merriman was an all-pro.. how did you feel about that decision?
 

vlad

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This is really where the anti-bias comes in imho. You give a guy a black mark or two AND he is a Cowboy, these voters just make idiotic excuses.

And the fact that HOF voters even bring up stats is ridiculous. Shouldn't you, if you are that much of a NFL expert, realize his impact? He was dominant. Pur and simple. And he posted those numbers in a run oriented offense!

What separates Irvin from Monk, Carter, and Brown is that he was FEARED (in terms of playing against and game planning for) and was critical in taking him team to 3 Superbowls in an era of very good teams. Think about how good the Bills, 49ers, Packers, Eagles and others were in that era.

Hey all I know is my sweet Mom who knows nothing about football always loved Irvin the best because you don't need to understand football to see the impact he had.

I have never throw the "bias" card out there because I'm too young to remember the old school players, so I cannot honestly comment on them versus their peers. But Irvin stoodl head and shoulders above his peers with the exception of Jerry Rice. The next closest WR I would have put down was Sterling Sharpe early in his career, but even then, he wasn't a cog in winning a superbowl (let alone 3). Okay, the only other time I threw out the bias card was when Woody didn't make the all-decade team. Serioulsy, what do you need for him to do?

Troy, Emmitt, Irvin, Allen and Woodson should all have been 1st ballet HOF, without question! Hopefully Woody will be, we know Emmitt will.

Haley should probably be a 1st ballot one too.
 

2233boys

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stag hunter;1307064 said:
1. Irvin didn't revolutionize his position the way LT did
2. Unless you are talking about a 1990s only hall of fame i dont see why its necessary to isolate all the stats to that decade
3. Irvin will make it in. His off the field transgressions likely cost him his chance to get in on the first ballot, which doesn't seem unfair to me. He might have to wait, but he'll get in

1) I wouldn't say LT revolutionized his position as much as he was just the best to ever play the position. One of the best football players ever, period.
2) Because those are the rec he is being compared to when I made that comment. That is the time period in which those players played at the same time. With the exception for Rice, Irvin was just better.
3) He shouldn't have to wait for anything that happened off the field, this isn't the hall of nice guys. It is the Hall of Fame. Irvin was a first ballot Hall of Famer that to date has been unduly shafted.
 
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