It kills me to say this about Roy *Merge*

[AdamJT13]

hey adam, isn't that a little too much space to be asking a mlb to cover? serious question

All he has to do is backpedal a few more yards instead of standing flat-footed and even taking a step forward. The play took a long time, and Burnett saw Toomer, but he just didn't drop enough.

 

[BigDFan5]

Nice post adam, clear and concise

 

[dallasfaniac]

I don't really fault anyone on defense as much as the lynch mob.

We haven't gotten our starting corners on the field at the same time much this year (shut up Edunce), the defense is new to all of them and you really have to be disciplined for it to be effective. You get one guy out of position and it can throw off the entire pass coverage scheme.

As far as Roy goes, I don't get too worked up over him because I understand that football fans, regardless of the team, think the same way.

During training camp, optimism is very high. This could be the year, because look at so and so last year, they came out of nowhere.

It's surprising how many fans feel their team stacks up well against whatever competition they are facing. When we were in our 5-11 Campo slump, I'm sure if everyone was honest, would admit that we thought we had a team that was able to compete but Campo was a poodle that just couldn't get them playing up to their abilities. Looking back on those rosters, I am honestly surprised we won 5.

There are many fans that just don't know what they are seeing. They try to compare a strong safety to a corner or free safety. They see a couple highlights or stats from another team and drool over their safeties. They see entire games of their own players and detect flaws that clearly aren't visible in the highlights of the other teams they have watched.

I've gone to all the forums to check out what their fans are saying. I have already mentioned that fans in Pittsburgh wished they had Bob Sanders or Roy Williams because Polamalu doesn't match up well in man to man and just can't seem to tackle, whiffing on too many attempted tackles. How he hasn't played well since 2004 and that he is way overrated.

I have seen posts on the Colts message boards where people say Bob Sanders is the heart of the defense, but he can't be counted on to stay in the game. They point out last year missing a game or two, coming back for a game or two, missing a couple more, etc. and the defense couldn't get any rythm. They wonder how many years left he has getting injured so much and being such a small guy. They point out that Freeney is a bigger loss than Sanders because the pressure he provides allows Sanders to roam the field more because the QBs don't have the time to survey the field. And then they point to his 1 interception (and 3 passes defensed) and wonder if they might be able to get more of a ball hawk, throwing out their own player names.

Finally, I've come to the decision that this will be my last post in any Roy Williams thread, because the last thing I realized is that despite overwhelming evidence, some fans just will not read anything contrary to their beliefs. Their minds are already made up.

You can point to the stats that show a player is better than others they throw out there, you can show them highlights of players on other teams giving up the same types of plays and you can show them just how other fans view the players they covet. It doesn't matter; the fact that they have 3 hours of film to critique one player doesn't hold up to the 2 plays of the other player they saw in the 30 second segment on ESPN.

 

[khiladi]

Yeah, let's expect Roy to be two places at once, 15 yards apart, no matter where his zone actually is.

In the example, you brought up, there are different factors involved than with the play on Cooley:

1. Ratliff took the back, coming out of the backfield. Burnett's only responsibility was the receiver, i.e. Toomer if he cut across the middle. In the case of Cooley's TD, Bradie waited for the break of Portis to the outside. He was thinking Portis and Cooley.

2. The play with Toomer, the Giants started at their OWN 47 yard line, and the deep pattern by Moss was well past the Dallas 40 yard line, i.e. 20 yards. So the coverage area for the linebacker and Roy was far different than the TD by Cooley. In the case of the TD pass to Cooley, Roy started 10 yards away from the snap line.

3. They had another receiver loaded on the side of Roy, i.e. they overloaded his side, so Roy had way more responsibility.

Bradie dropping Cooley off for Roy was different scenario in terms of spacing, as well as responsibility.

^--- Toomer catches the ball clear over the on left hasmarks, not on Roy's half of the field. Notice where Sinorice Moss is in the upper right -- in Roy's deep zone, with Henry in a trailing position (as he should be in zone coverage with a deep safety). Notice Hamlin in the lower right by the "0" in "40." Burress' route pulled him up out of the deep zone, meaning that Toomer would have had a lot of open field if Roy hadn't made the tackle. And there's Reeves at the very bottom around the 40-yard line, covering Burress (who is off the screen).

Because Hamlin was double-teaming Plaxico Burress, which as was clear by Wade, was the gameplan. This is precisely why he is so much farther up the the line of scrimmage than Roy is, despite them playing cover-2. Also, the picture shows Henry behind Moss after the ball had been thrown. That is why he is in a trailing position.

Now notice Burnett (in the middle of the photo, with his foot on the first-down line). He's 5 yards in front of Toomer, which allowed Manning to throw the ball right over his head. He actually took a step forward as Toomer crossed behind him, which made it an even easier throw. There is no receiver running underneath to keep him from getting a proper drop. He just doesn't drop far enough, and Toomer is able to get behind him for the catch.

Look at where Newman is on that play... He is exactly where Burnett is in terms of how far in front he is. Toomer's direction wasn't a cut straight into the middle, but slanted inwards as is evident where he is after he caught the ball. The Giants just took advantage of good spacing, not a simple, if Burnett had driopped back 4-5 yards, the ball wouldn't have been caught...

BTW, the Commanders play-call was targetted specifically at Roy Williams. This play-action was directed to the side of Roy. Portis ran staright ahead before breaking perpendicular to the outside, causing Bradie to wait after dropping Cooley off for Roy, which put Cooley over the middle, right into the zone of Roy.

The only similarity is that that both plays attacked the side of Roy, which is different than they attacked Roy. The Commanders play was less 'complicated', and that play, in my view, was clearly Roy's fault. Even he said it...

 

[Zimmy Lives]

I don't fault Roy for his misgivings in pass coverage, he is a great football player. I just wish he played the game the same way Romo plays. Sometimes I get the impression he would rather be somewhere else.

 

[bbgun]

I don't really fault anyone on defense as much as the lynch mob.

There are two mobs here, and everyone has blood on their hands. Since both sides are dug in and impervious to persuasion, why does it go on? Male competitiveness? Boredom? Oneupmanship? Roy is a lightning rod, and that won't change till he hangs up the cleats or dons a different uniform.

 

[AdamJT13]

In the example, you brought up, there are different factors involved than with the play on Cooley

I'm not sure whether you're trying to dispute anything I posted, but there are lots of differences between those plays. It was BigbadRoy/Rampage who said they were the same and Roy was at fault both times, but that's far from the truth. There's not much similar between the two plays.

In the case of Cooley's TD, Bradie waited for the break of Portis to the outside. He was thinking Portis and Cooley.

He should have been thinking mostly of Cooley. In Cover 2, the soft spots are the deep middle (between the safeties) and the deep corners (behind the corners and away from the safeties). Anytime the tight ends runs up the seam, the middle linebacker has to drop deep enough to make the throw to the tight end difficult.

On that play, with both the wide receiver and the tight end running vertical routes from his side, Ware takes Portis coming out of the backfield, even if he curls into the middle, because there are no other threats to the left flat -- all of the other eligible receivers are accounted for.

Also, the picture shows Henry behind Moss after the ball had been thrown. It was a well-designed play.

Again, I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing with what I said, but the ball was in the air for only a split second -- not long enough for Moss to get that kind of separation from Henry. If Manning had thrown to Moss, Roy would have been the only one who could have prevented a completion (assuming Manning threw an accurate pass, that is).

Look at where Newman is on that play... He is exactly where Burnett is in terms of how far in front he is.

Newman also doesn't have a receiver running across his zone behind him. He does have Shockey potentially leaking into his zone, though.

BTW, the Commanders play-call was targetted specifically at Roy Williams.

Any pass up the middle against Cover 2 is targeted at the safety. And if the middle linebacker doesn't drop into his zone, it's usually an easy completion.

Watch Witten's catch early in the fourth quarter (the one when he bounced off LaRon "Lightweight" Landry). McIntosh dropped 14 yards off the line of scrimmage and nearly knocked the ball down, but Witten still made the catch in front of Landry. It was a difficult throw for Romo, but it still was completed in front of the deep safety. When there's no linebacker in the throwing lane, it's pretty simple.

The only similarity is that that both plays attacked the side of Roy.

The Giants play ended up attacking the side away from Roy.

 

[khiladi]

He should have been thinking mostly of Cooley. In Cover 2, the soft spots are the deep middle (between the safeties) and the deep corners (behind the corners and away from the safeties). Anytime the tight ends runs up the seam, the middle linebacker has to drop deep enough to make the throw to the tight end difficult.

Yeah, they were playign Cover 2, but it was 1st and 10, meaning, run first. Bradie was key-ing in on Portis. As soon as he broke outside after realizing pass, he dropped back. If Bradie dropped back, Portis had only to break inside, away from Ware, and he would have ran untouched into the end-zone. The only person Roy had to really key in on was Cooley. Even he said it was his fault.

Again, I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing with what I said, but the ball was in the air for only a split second -- not long enough for Moss to get that kind of separation from Henry. If Manning had thrown to Moss, Roy would have been the only one who could have prevented a completion (assuming Manning threw an accurate pass, that is).

That doesn't make any sense. Roy is as far away from Moss when it hits Toomer's hands, as Henry is away from Moss. Plus, Roy is a step behind Henry, and closer to the middle. if the ball was in the air for a 'split second' than would mean that Roy wasn't in good position to stop the deep ball either.

As I said, that was just a good play-design. This, coupled by the fact, the Giants went max-protect, and gave Manning all day to throw.

Newman also doesn't have a receiver running across his zone behind him. He does have Shockey potentially leaking into his zone, though.

But the same Shockey can't run a route over the middle, 'potentially leaking into the zone of Burnett'? Shockey, by that time, was already engaging a blocker, and the Giants were in max-protect. Like I said, just a well-designed play call, and good protection.

Any pass up the middle against Cover 2 is targeted at the safety. And if the middle linebacker doesn't drop into his zone, it's usually an easy completion.

A lot of it depends on the size the offense has to work with as well. The smaller the field, the smaller the passing lane becomes, and the easier it is for the SS to cover the TE. Once again, it was 1st and 10, and Bradie clearly covered the running lane that Portis was running to. Roy saw Cooley, played it, but got his hips turned the wrong way.

The Giants play ended up attacking the side away from Roy.

They were clearly attacking Roy, because Hamlin was double-covering Plaxico. You have Eli looking at that side of the field the whole time.

 

[khiladi]

There are two mobs here, and everyone has blood on their hands. Since both sides are dug in and impervious to persuasion, why does it go on? Male competitiveness? Boredom? Oneupmanship? Roy is a lightning rod, and that won't change till he hangs up the cleats or dons a different uniform.

Or loses 10 more pounds... What is most stirking is his legs... Look at his legs in college, and look at them now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyj3C47CTIs

That Roy was all over the place, coverage, run support, interceptions, pass protection... no hesitation, and pure instincts... and in college, when everybody is pass happy... nobody can't tell me Roy can't cover, or that it was all Darren Woodson getting him aligned properly... the same body size his first 2 years in the Pros..

I don't want him at LB... I want him at SS, at a lighter body size..

 

[AdamJT13]

Yeah, they were playign Cover 2, but it was 1st and 10, meaning, run first. Bradie was key-ing in on Portis.

No, Bradie jammed SHOCKEY, as he should have. The linebacker jams the tight end, then drops underneath him. That's basic Cover 2 stuff. As I've been saying, watch any of the plays when it's done properly.

As soon as he broke outside after realizing pass, he dropped back.

No, watch the replay again. He hesitated when Portis came out of the backfield, and even AFTER Portis cut outside, James just kind of hung out where he was. He didn't drop until after the pass was being thrown.

If Bradie dropped back, Portis had only to break inside, away from Ware, and he would have ran untouched into the end-zone.

What? Ware was right on Portis. If he breaks inside, Ware follows him inside. If Campbell dumps it short over the middle for a completion to Portis, Ware likely makes the tackle right away. If Ware misses him, James AND Ayodele are in the vicinity to make the tackle. If they both miss, too, Roy and Hamlin can come up to make the tackle. You can't assume FIVE defenders aren't going to be able to make the tackle.

The only person Roy had to really key in on was Cooley.

Not in zone coverage. If Cooley runs a drag to the right side or a quick out into the flat, Roy has nothing to do with him. And if Santana Moss runs a deep route into the end zone, Roy has coverage on him over the top of Newman. Those are the two initial threats to Roy's zone -- the tight end and wide receiver on his side. And if Campbell buys time and the play develops further, one of the other receivers could even end up in Roy's zone.

Even he said it was his fault.

Everyone has said it was his fault. That doesn't mean James didn't make it much easier for Campbell by blowing his zone assignment.

That doesn't make any sense. Roy is as far away from Moss when it hits Toomer's hands, as Henry is away from Moss. Plus, Roy is a step behind Henry, and closer to the middle. if the ball was in the air for a 'split second' than would mean that Roy wasn't in good position to stop the deep ball either.

Roy has already broken toward Toomer, while Henry and Moss are still running down and across the field. Roy read the play and broke toward Toomer just as Manning started to throw. If we could go back to the instant when Roy started to break toward Toomer, you'd be able to see his positioning in relation to Moss. Unfortunately, Moss isn't on camera when that happens, so there's no photographic evidence. But given the laws of time and physics, we can figure out what happened.

But the same Shockey can't run a route over the middle, 'potentially leaking into the zone of Burnett'?

When you ALREADY have a receiver in your zone, it doesn't matter. If Newman had Toomer running a 15-yard out behind him, he'd have to drop to that depth to cover him. But he has nobody close to his zone, so he just stays there in case Shockey leaks out. Burnett HAS a guy crossing behind him, so he can't stand there and worry about Shockey coming over the middle.

They were clearly attacking Roy, because Hamlin was double-covering Plaxico.

If they were attacking Roy, Toomer would have run a deep route into Roy's zone instead of cutting across the middle and catching the ball on the other half of the field. They were attacking the mismatch of a wide receiver on a linebacker in zone coverage.

You have Eli looking at that side of the field the whole time.

Manning has two wide receivers on that side and only one on the other. His first read likely was Moss on the post. But with Roy deep over the top of Moss and Toomer being ignored by the linebacker over the middle, the choice was easy. Fortunately, Roy read it and prevented it from being an even bigger gain.

 

[Idgit]

There are two mobs here, and everyone has blood on their hands. Since both sides are dug in and impervious to persuasion, why does it go on? Male competitiveness? Boredom? Oneupmanship? Roy is a lightning rod, and that won't change till he hangs up the cleats or dons a different uniform.

Actually, there are 3 groups. Haters, Apologists, and those of us who can't ignore stupidity.

The Apologists group has shrunk over the years to where it can hardly be called a mob. The Haters react hysterically with little provocation and then the rest of us have to watch Adam et al digest their lunatic fringe. We open the thread once a day with the morbid fascination we reserve for watching a constrictor snake eat a rat.

 

[zrinkill]

those of us who can't ignore stupidity.

I admit I am in that group .... but it is more of a way to past the week than the need to just argue. (though I admit that I enjoy that as well)

 

[khiladi]

No, Bradie jammed SHOCKEY, as he should have. The linebacker jams the tight end, then drops underneath him. That's basic Cover 2 stuff. As I've been saying, watch any of the plays when it's done properly.

You mean Cooley. And how many times does this need repeating? The down was 1st and 10, the Cowboys were playing run, not pass. When Bradie jammed Cooley, it was still not determined that the Commanders were playing pass. They ran a well-executed play-action. The hesitation displayed by Bradie was because of this fact.

Bradie jammed Cooley on 1st and 10 as he should have, and then key-ed in on Portis because it was 1st and 10. Part of the reason for the jam is to disrupt the route, so that the help can also be there.

No, watch the replay again. He hesitated when Portis came out of the backfield, and even AFTER Portis cut outside, James just kind of hung out where he was. He didn't drop until after the pass was being thrown.

Because he was playing RUN, and the Commanders ran a nice play-action. The issue is that Roy was responsible for the help, and he was clearly in position to make the play, but he had his hips turned sideways.

Bradie also was responsible for the run, and if they went run, than Bradie was right there to take Portis in the hole. Who would have taken Portis if he busted through the wide-open whole and cut inside, and ran straight into the end-zone? According to you it was Ware, and he was suppose to come in from the outside and close the run gap, if Portis got the ball. I don't buy that.

What? Ware was right on Portis. If he breaks inside, Ware follows him inside.

Interesting... SO Bradie had no responsibility to close the hole that Portis was running through on the play-action? The responsibility of Portis was solely on Ware, who was on the outside, even if Portis ran through the gap
and broke inside. Nice...

If Campbell dumps it short over the middle for a completion to Portis, Ware likely makes the tackle right away. If Ware misses him, James AND Ayodele are in the vicinity to make the tackle.

Ayodele is playing the FB, and was clearly guarding the pass to the flat. James, according to you, should have dropped back and covered Cooley down the field. If Bradie dropped back an extra 6 yards, while following Cooley down the seam, he is expected to take on Portis?

If they both miss, too, Roy and Hamlin can come up to make the tackle. You can't assume FIVE defenders aren't going to be able to make the tackle.

The strength of the defense in the cover-2, especially on the tune, is on the outside, not the inside.

Not in zone coverage. If Cooley runs a drag to the right side or a quick out into the flat, Roy has nothing to do with him. And if Santana Moss runs a deep route into the end zone, Roy has coverage on him over the top of Newman. Those are the two initial threats to Roy's zone -- the tight end and wide receiver on his side. And if Campbell buys time and the play develops further, one of the other receivers could even end up in Roy's zone.

In this situation he did. The only person Roy had to key in on THIS SITUATION was Cooley. And Roy broke to Cooley, but he had his hips turned sideways. Cooley did not run a drag to the right side, he did not run a quick out to the flat. He ran directly through the seam, and Roy played it horribly.

The TE was the responsibility of Roy, and Roy blew it. It is that simple.

Everyone has said it was his fault. That doesn't mean James didn't make it much easier for Campbell by blowing his zone assignment.

And Bradie isn't responsible for the run? Roy was there for help, but because of his poor angle, he blew the tackle. Because he had bad alignment of his hips, he couldn't make the tackle.

Roy has already broken toward Toomer, while Henry and Moss are still running down and across the field. Roy read the play and broke toward Toomer just as Manning started to throw. If we could go back to the instant when Roy started to break toward Toomer, you'd be able to see his positioning in relation to Moss. Unfortunately, Moss isn't on camera when that happens, so there's no photographic evidence. But given the laws of time and physics, we can figure out what happened.

The laws of time and physics? And your law of time is "the ball was in the air for only a split second".. So the ball was in the air for a split second, and Roy read the play and broke to Toomer, but covered six yards or so in this split-second? And your talking about the laws of time and physics? I call that exxageration...

When you ALREADY have a receiver in your zone, it doesn't matter. If Newman had Toomer running a 15-yard out behind him, he'd have to drop to that depth to cover him. But he has nobody close to his zone, so he just stays there in case Shockey leaks out. Burnett HAS a guy crossing behind him, so he can't stand there and worry about Shockey coming over the middle.

So where is the END of Burnett's zone? Basic cover-2 tells you the depth of the 2 zones is approximately the same, is it not?

If they were attacking Roy, Toomer would have run a deep route into Roy's zone instead of cutting across the middle and catching the ball on the other half of the field. They were attacking the mismatch of a wide receiver on a linebacker in zone coverage.

One can attack a player through deception. Because a player has a tendency to bite, and over-extend himself in certain positions, a team may take advantage of that by using a decoy. Further, Toomer was a moving target, so when Manning releases the ball, the point at which Eli Manning throws it, and Toomer catches it can be in different zones.

Manning has two wide receivers on that side and only one on the other. His first read likely was Moss on the post. But with Roy deep over the top of Moss and Toomer being ignored by the linebacker over the middle, the choice was easy. Fortunately, Roy read it and prevented it from being an even bigger gain.

The problem is the Cowboys are playing a lot of soft-zone, and there is a reason for it....

 

[dcowboysfan76]

Vinnie Barbarino once sang a song that said, "peanut butter and jelly, that's all I put in my belly...."
That was