Jerry Jones: Deflategate and Ezekiel Elliott situations are different

[SultanOfSix]

Well, yes. Anyone who knows something about logical fallacies would realize it's a false equivalence.

 

[joseephuss]

I know off topic but I still find it amazing that Brady gets suspended for breaking this rule where as Aaron Rodgers admitted to over inflating his balls (against league rules) and there is absolute nothing in regards to Rodgers.

Rodgers said he requested the footballs be over-inflated before the refs checked them. He didn't ask the the staff to over-inflate the footballs after the refs approved them. The whole point of the refs checking the footballs is to get them to the proper pressure. And to be honest, we don't even have Rodgers admitting this. We have Phil Simms claiming Rodgers said this. Simms is a tool.

I believe Brady and the staff manipulated the footballs after they were checked by the refs. I didn't and don't think it warranted a suspension. I also didn't think his actions of hindering the investigation warranted a 4 game suspension. Maybe 1 game suspension and a hefty fine.

 

[PA Cowboy Fan]

Quite honestly...in my re-read of that case (in light of this current one), I am changing my view on the whole deflategate issue (and mind you, I was completely convinced of the Pats' guilt, esp. given the history). Now...given how the league FO operates (suppression of evidence), I'm not so sure. Goddell flat out lied when x-examined about Brady's appeals hearing testimony, which should tell us everything we need to know given what's happening with Zeke.

At least I am more of a neutral spectator on it now...

I don't trust the league with anything anymore. They lied about Zack. How do we know they didn't lie about Brady or somebody else for that matter? they are a disgrace to the league.

 

[reddyuta]

and thats wyy Zeke has a slim chance of the appeals court vacating the whole ban,if they think the League is out to get him then they MAY vacate the ban.

 

[Galian Beast]

Reading the decision by the 8th circuit, I'm beginning to feel like Elliott will lose in the end.

On the subject of fundamental fairness:

The 8th circuit found that fundamental fairness was not implicit nor was it a reason for vacatur.

But if the 8th did leave hope as they said the following:

"Our narrow construction of extra-statutory review militates us against adopting a fundamental fairness standard. Hoffman (the cited case) did not categorically reject the possibility of such a standard but said that it could apply only to arbitration schemes so deeply flawed as to preclude the possibility of a fair outcome."

The question before the 5th if the thinking is similar (and even in the prelim. injunction, the judge made a strong case for that by stating the well was tainted from the get go).

 

[HankC]

The NFLPA signed the CBA, allowing the Commish to be the decision maker on player conduct matters, in good faith. That is a legal term implying fairness and integrity. This will be the crucial issue the NFLPA needs to win in the appeal.

 

[Beast_from_East]

The NFLPA signed the CBA, allowing the Commish to be the decision maker on player conduct matters, in good faith. That is a legal term implying fairness and integrity. This will be the crucial issue the NFLPA needs to win in the appeal.

Exactly.........this is no longer just about Zeke, this is about how much power the league has over the Players Union. See this is all about the next CBA, because CBA negotiations are give and take. If I give up something, you have to give up something also. So if the courts rule that Goddell has carte blanch over discipline no matter what the evidence or process used, then to give up that power the players have to give up something in return. Maybe the players have to give in and go with an 18 game regular season or maybe don't get as big a share of revenue or something.

Now if the courts rule that Goddell does not have carte blanch and a fair process must be used, then all of a sudden the league doesn't have nearly as strong a negotiation position. They cant force as many concessions out of the players because Goddell's power would have already been depleted by the courts. Now maybe they cant get 18 games or maybe they have to give up a bigger percentage of revenues, ect....

So this is way more involved than just Zeke, this is literally established how strong each side will be in the next CBA negotiations. Zeke just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and the situation allowed the league to make an example out of him in order to strengthen their position in the next CBA.

 

[hornitosmonster]

Keeping poking that stick at your boss Roger. Keeping poking.

 

[Direwolf63]

Question: an attorney buddy of mine, who is familiar with the CBA because he was involved in a lawsuit filed by an ex-Texans player against the team, told me this morning that he thinks the league is ultilmately going to win because "I have seen nothing in the CBA which guarantees due process".

Thoughts?

If the NFL is going to have an arbitration process, it is implicit that the process be fair. Otherwise there is no point in having a process if all the chips are stacked against the player. It would be a waste of time.

Having a process that is fair, should not have to be spelled out on paper.
it is implicit in having a process at all

 

[Ghost12]

Keeping poking that stick at your boss Roger. Keeping poking.

Problem is - like last year - he is poking only 1 of his bosses and delighting the other 31.

 

[MeTed]

Question: an attorney buddy of mine, who is familiar with the CBA because he was involved in a lawsuit filed by an ex-Texans player against the team, told me this morning that he thinks the league is ultilmately going to win because "I have seen nothing in the CBA which guarantees due process".

Thoughts?

Excerpts from the judges' memo. Emphasis mine.

"The NFLPA seeks to vacate the arbitration award suspending Elliott for six games. “Judicial review of an arbitration award is extraordinarily narrow.” Gulf Coast Indus. Workers Union v. Exxon Co. USA, 70 F.3d 847, 850 (5th Cir. 1995) (quoting Antwine v. Prudential Bache Sec., Inc., 899 F.2d 410, 413 (5th Cir. 1990)). “[C]ourts are not authorized to reconsider the merits of an award even though the parties may allege that the award rests on errors of fact or misinterpretation of the contract.” United Paperworkers Int’l Union v. Misco, Inc., 484 U.S. 29, 36 (1987). When asked to vacate an arbitration award, the Court has a very limited question before it: whether the arbitration proceedings were fundamentally unfair. Id. (citing Forsythe Int’l, S.A. v. Gibbs Oil Co., 915 F.2d 1017, 1021 (5th Cir. 1990))."

"However, the FAA7 creates a narrow exception that allows courts to intervene and vacate an award when a hearing is not fundamentally fair. An arbitration is fundamentally unfair when, among other things, “the arbitrators are guilty of misconduct . . . in refusing to hear evidence pertinent and material to the controversy.”

7 When reviewing the validity of a labor arbitration award under the LMRA, courts look to the FAA for guidance. Int’l Chem. Workers Union v. Columbian Chems. Co., 331 F.3d 491, 292 (5th Cir. 2003) (citing United Paperworkers, 484 U.S. at 41 n.9).

 

[MeTed]

The fundamental problem with the punishment process in the NFL is that it's so arbitrary you could use it as a random number generator for physics experiments.

Just look at what Goodell did to the Patriots. Spygate was a huge deal and he helped to cover it up by literally destroying evidence. Deflategate was a stupid equipment violation for babies (if it even happened at all), and they went berserk. Beating women is worth anything between a 1 game suspension and infinity, smoking too much weed gets an indefinite ban while literally cheating with drugs that actually improve performance might get you 4 games. Like half the Seahawks used adderall as a masking agent for PEDs and got nothing, Peyton used his wife as an HGH mule and got nothing, but hoooly smokes if you're a Browns receiver who likes wacky tabaccy you're going to get the HAMMER.

It's staring into a dimension of pure chaos that puts The Twilight Zone to shame. Nothing makes sense and nothing matters.

How many more black eyes are the NFL owners willing to take? The evidence speaks for itself; the NFL sucks at adjudicating legal matters. That is the fundamental problem IMHO. They should focus on what they do best ... football.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

So JJ is saying the league rail roaded Zeke where Brady refused to cooperate.

pretty much

 

[Hoofbite]

Jerry's looking rough.

 

[diefree666]

Excerpts from the judges' memo. Emphasis mine.

"The NFLPA seeks to vacate the arbitration award suspending Elliott for six games. “Judicial review of an arbitration award is extraordinarily narrow.” Gulf Coast Indus. Workers Union v. Exxon Co. USA, 70 F.3d 847, 850 (5th Cir. 1995) (quoting Antwine v. Prudential Bache Sec., Inc., 899 F.2d 410, 413 (5th Cir. 1990)). “[C]ourts are not authorized to reconsider the merits of an award even though the parties may allege that the award rests on errors of fact or misinterpretation of the contract.” United Paperworkers Int’l Union v. Misco, Inc., 484 U.S. 29, 36 (1987). When asked to vacate an arbitration award, the Court has a very limited question before it: whether the arbitration proceedings were fundamentally unfair. Id. (citing Forsythe Int’l, S.A. v. Gibbs Oil Co., 915 F.2d 1017, 1021 (5th Cir. 1990))."

"However, the FAA7 creates a narrow exception that allows courts to intervene and vacate an award when a hearing is not fundamentally fair. An arbitration is fundamentally unfair when, among other things, “the arbitrators are guilty of misconduct . . . in refusing to hear evidence pertinent and material to the controversy.”

7 When reviewing the validity of a labor arbitration award under the LMRA, courts look to the FAA for guidance. Int’l Chem. Workers Union v. Columbian Chems. Co., 331 F.3d 491, 292 (5th Cir. 2003) (citing United Paperworkers, 484 U.S. at 41 n.9).

Bottom line is that fundamental fairness cannot be signed away in any contract. The NFL violated that key cornerstone of any process.
So to me it is pretty obvious that the NFL will in the end lose.

 

[cowboys1981]

I understand there is a CBA. I'm struggling with how it has more weight than people's constitutional rights.

 

[diefree666]

I understand there is a CBA. I'm struggling with how it has more weight than people's constitutional rights.

That to me is where so many so called experts are wrong. No CBA can take away a person's constitutional and the HUMAN RIGHT to be treated fairly which the NFL so clearly did not in this case.

 

[dallasfan4lizife]

I'm with ya JJ, but you are starting to look like the crypt keeper brah. Old age sucks.

It's coming for us all.

The difference is, he's a multi billionaire and has gotten more ***** past the age of 65 than most get in a lifetime.

 

[Nightman]

That to me is where so many so called experts are wrong. No CBA can take away a person's constitutional and the HUMAN RIGHT to be treated fairly which the NFL so clearly did not in this case.

Constitutional rights can be bargained away but both sides have to honor the agreement and can't just make things up or treat people differently..... they have to honor their own precedents

Any commissioner's main job is to enforce the rules and administer punishments as an unbiased third party but Goodell has way overstepped his job........ he cannot enforce Social Justice on players and he can't be allowed to be the cops, the lawyers, the judge, the jury, the appeals court and the executioner ..... they desperately need a completely neutral outside appeals panel

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Translator please...... that was confusing even for JJ

Brady was about lying to leadership, Zeke's case is not about the same thing.

Zeke has cooperated fully. Recall what I said initially here. We negotiated the privilege to administer punishment but we have to do it fairly.

It should be no surprise when we do it unfairly that we get reprimanded. I am not surprised because you have to be fair.