JG and Zimmer

[JohnsKey19]

Yes, because Jonathan Joseph and Leon Hall are the next Deion Sanders and Kevin Smith.

It couldn't possibly be because they're the #2 ranked rush defense in the league and in the top 5 for sacks.

Or the fact that Zimmer wasn't really half as bad as people here made him out to be.

Joseph and Hall are two very good young and improving CBs, surely much better than anything we had here while Zimmer was DC until Newman was drafted. Obviously there are many reasons for Cincy's improved D this year. The rush D, getting to the QB AND coverage. They've held their last 3 opponents(Flacco/BigBen/Cutler) to an average QB rating of around 60. And if you watch some of their games you'd see that their CB play has a lot to do with that.

 

[AMERICAS_FAN]

...or maybe because they're not happy with his performance as OC? Or because they think he doesn't utilize the teams talent properly? Or because they don't like the colour of his hair?!
It's too simplistic to say that fans are upset with Garrett because of how much money he makes. Even if you don't agree with the criticism, you need to at least consider that the critics might have just cause to criticize. Last year, I had no idea how much Bruce Read made but I was still disappointed in the unit that he coached.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Having said that, the Garrett apologists will atill apologize. Just learn to expect their non-accountability ways. In their eyes, Garrett can do no wrong and should be promoted to head coach.

 

[Hostile]

It's entirely possible that the fans have no idea what they're talking about.

In all fairness, some fans are very good football minds. Albeit from the comfort of their keyboard. I played college ball and at one time our QB was getting devestated in the papers and the fans were all over him. The problem was, he was following a QB who was a legend.

One night a bunch of us went to this pizza place near campus. When you see 8 guys the size of some of us it is pretty easy to figure out who we were even if you don't know faces. This QB was one of the guys in our group.

We sat down and a table near us started talking about him. One guy in particular was over the line. A couple of us wanted to go mop the floor with the guy. That was our QB he was lambasting. He wouldn't let us. Finally the guy informs his table that he was in fact a better QB than Steve.

Steve got up and walked over to that table. I thought he was going to kill the guy. He said, "I am glad to hear it. We really need your help. Practice starts tomorrow morning at 6 AM. See you on the field."

Okay, how does this correlate to your comment? Every player on the team has talent. You do not make it to the NFL without some very real skills. Same with the coaches. Every player and coach has strengths and weaknesses. Fans will never acknowledge this as reality. Players should be invincible or infallible. It is a ridiculous position to take, but that is the real world. There is nothing inherently wrong with a fan recognizing that a player from another team is doing better than one of our players.

Where it reaches the point of ridiculous and I am forced to close my eyes is when fans resort to hyperbole. Orlando Scandrick has gone from Draft Day steal to a complete bust. It is a ridiculous supposition. Do players have bad days? Oh heck yes they do. Does one bad game erase all previous talent? Of course not.

You have to pick and choose what to pay attention to. If a fan is pretty level headed, whether positive or negative, he probably knows a little about football and is informed enough to give some credence to. Most fans do not fit that description. They fly off the handle both ways. That's why the credible fans are so rare and precious to a forum.

 

[Hostile]

Well not that it matters but if you are a season ticket holder or you buy Cowboys merchandise, yeah it comes out of our pocket. We just want the W and as an obsessed fan we tend to over analyze why our Top $ OC abandons the run. :laugh2:

Yeah, my 50 bucks of Cowboys birthday gifts really pay Jason Garrett.

That is as stupid as citizens who think they pay a cops salary, and tell him so. Uh, no you don't.

 

[Gaede]

There is absolutely no comparison to the results of Special Teams last year and the Offense this year. That was silly man.

...I'm not comparing the performances of each unit, obviously they're entirely different, I'm talking about criticisms of these performances. Some people criticize because they are actually upset with the way things actually happened. I would've criticized Bruce Read for not doing a good job, regardless of his income, just as I'll criticize Garrett, regardless of his income.

I personally don't know how much money Garrett makes and could care less. That's Jerry's money, not mine. What he makes has nothing to do with anything, to me. For example, when Romo gets sacked and fumbles out of the shotgun on the same old corner blitz that has hit us frequently this year, I don't sit there and think 'man, Garrett is a millionaire?!'. I think, 'man, Garrett got hit with this exact same play multiple times before out of this exact same formation...why does he keep doing it?' Just because some critics unnecessarily focus on much money a guy makes, doesn't mean all critics think that way.

 

[CF74]

Yeah, my 50 bucks of Cowboys birthday gifts really pay Jason Garrett.

That is as stupid as citizens who think they pay a cops salary, and tell him so. Uh, no you don't.

Is this reverse hyperbole now? So if 5 million fans stopped buying jerseys where would the proceeds come from? It's like the ole argument about voting. Does one vote really count? Only if everyone thinks it doesn't, then nobody votes. Paying taxes, what if we had a revolution? not likely but c'mon Hos, what if nobody gave $1 to this forum? Are you saying small contributions don't count?

 

[baj1dallas]

The fact of the matter is we have had some very good assistant coaches in recent years. The fans generally look only numbers. If we aren't scoring more points than every other team then the OC isn't good enough. If we aren't shutting every team out then the DC isn't good enough.

Jason Garrett is receiving a lot of criticism, fair and unfair, for one reason and one reason only, he is the highest paid OC in the NFL.

Fans act like that money comes out of their pockets or affects the salary cap.

Yea I remember Sean Payton being a bad playcaller too for a couple of weeks.

 

[BAT]

Zimmer's got 2 lockdown corners in Cincy. That makes a huge difference. He doesn't have to worry about Mario Edwards, Kareem Larrimore, Phillip Sparks and other below average DB talent he dealt with for much of his tenure here in Dallas.

Other than Sparks (a FA), those were all corners he helped choose and "develop". Can't always blame the tools, the guy picking he tools and working it has to be accountable as well.

 

[BAT]

Yea I remember Sean Payton being a bad playcaller too for a couple of weeks.

Parcells called the plays on offense when Payton was the passing game coach (not an even the OC) if I recall. Unless you are referring to his time w/the Giants when he was relieved of his playcalling duties.

 

[Hostile]

Is this reverse hyperbole now? So if 5 million fans stopped buying jerseys where would the proceeds come from? It's like the ole argument about voting. Does one vote really count? Only if everyone thinks it doesn't, then nobody votes. Paying taxes, what if we had a revolution? not likely but c'mon Hos, what if nobody gave $1 to this forum? Are you saying small contributions don't count?

5 million fans are going to stop buying merchandise? And you ask me about hyperbole?

 

[kramskoi]

We live in a world of blame .. and fans fully embrace this premise.

If the OC calls plays that you don't agree with that are successful .. that means the OC is a genius.

If the OC calls plays that you don't agree with that fail to succeed .. that means the OC sucks.

If Belichick had succeeded on that fourth down gamble, everyone would be talking about how he's the man with balls of steel and that's why he is better than Wade Cupcake Phillips.

Because he failed, everyone is talking about how stupid he was to attempt that. The only complement you can give him is that at least he didn't do it twice ala Barry Switzer.

-Reality

...call it catharsis, commensurate with the amount of emotional investment in the team...blame gives order to the chaos of something beyond our ability to control...is it fair...not really...is it reality...you betcha...human nature...

...Harrison castigated Belichick for it, which is politically correct, but even he knew that it was a no-win situation...everyone knows that Peyton was going to drive that team to a touchdown regardless...

...teams and players must also understand the fan investment perspective...some are more involved than others, especially those who really want to delve into the nuts and bolts of offensive and defensive football...many of us enjoy playing the arm-chair quarterback, the prognosticator, the soothsayer...but along comes the game that throws everything into an abyss of disorder and chaos and we then embark on the fact-finding mission of analysis, blame and finally acceptance of the situation...we must restore order from the chaos in relief of anxiety and disappointment so we can look to the future with some degree of optimism...sometimes this process takes longer to realize...

 

[Future]

Face it any time any team loses the 1st thing out of fans mouth is play calling followed by officials.

On this team that is where a lot of our problems come from...

....that and lack of intelligence.

 

[jazzcat22]

Zimmer's got 2 lockdown corners in Cincy. That makes a huge difference. He doesn't have to worry about Mario Edwards, Kareem Larrimore, Phillip Sparks and other below average DB talent he dealt with for much of his tenure here in Dallas.

True, but this last game against the Steelers, weren't they missing 2 starting DB's and a LB, and played a rookie at CB?

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I think in football the thing is sometimes a couple of guys who don't show up to play can kill your team. Furthermore, if one guy doesn't show up that can really hurt your team.

Flo and Gurode didn't show up against GB. Roy got open, but made two huge mistakes.

But the rest of the guys played well. Defense looked fine. Held a high scoring team on the road to 3 points thru 3 quarters. Romo looked fine. RB's looked decent. Really didn't have much of a problem with most of the team. But those 3 guys, combined with McBriar still not knowing how to placehold really killed us.

I still have my questions about JG, but IMO I think he's a better OC than Zimmer was a DC. Zimmer is having success this year, but stunk in ATL and last year in Cincy. And we gave Zimmer talent and he struggled with it. He's a big reason why we wound up drafting offensive players in the first round every year. The defense would struggle and we thought we needed one more player and that wasn't the case. We just needed a better DC.

Remember, we had Coakley, Nguyen, Greg Ellis Roy Williams in their primes with Zimmer as DC. We had Woodson, Newman, Glover, etc. The only guy that could contain Ware seemed to be Zimmer.

Hey, I'm glad he's having success in Cincy. But I really don't wish he was here by any means. Garrett has gotten his offenses to produce at a high leve in the 1 1/2 seasons in the 2 1/2 seasons he's been here. I think against GB, Flo and Gurode's play was so bad it was surprising and that makes for a real tough adjustment when guys who are supposed to be reliable suddenly are not.





YAKUZA

 

[skinsscalper]

...call it catharsis, commensurate with the amount of emotional investment in the team...blame gives order to the chaos of something beyond our ability to control...is it fair...not really...is it reality...you betcha...human nature...

...Harrison castigated Belichick for it, which is politically correct, but even he knew that it was a no-win situation...everyone knows that Peyton was going to drive that team to a touchdown regardless...

...teams and players must also understand the fan investment perspective...some are more involved than others, especially those who really want to delve into the nuts and bolts of offensive and defensive football...many of us enjoy playing the arm-chair quarterback, the prognosticator, the soothsayer...but along comes the game that throws everything into an abyss of disorder and chaos and we then embark on the fact-finding mission of analysis, blame and finally acceptance of the situation...we must restore order from the chaos in relief of anxiety and disappointment so we can look to the future with some degree of optimism...sometimes this process takes longer to realize...

Wow dude. That's some heavy ****. The thing is: I totally get it. For the first time in years I'm craving a bong hit.

:laugh2:

Seriously, that's a pretty good break down of the sports fan mentality. Good stuff.