John Phillips

[realtick]

Sure medical advancements have made it more possible for players to come back more quickly, but the point is that it doesn't make sense to start running of all your depth at the position without even seeing where the guy is in his rehab (not to mention in his maturity as an NFL player). Being more possible to come back quickly doesn't equate to a certainty, and people do struggle sometime3s when coming back from serious knee injuries. Owen Daniel struggled through the first few months of his come back from knee surgery this year.

Owen Daniels was coming off his third ACL knee surgery.

I'm guessing that had a lot to do with his recovery. I'm not sure if they were all on the same knee, but I'll venture to say he's had at least two on one knee. Not to mention his injury occured in Week 8 of the 2008 season, compared to Phillips' preseason Week 1 injury last year.

Ironically, the fact he's had three ACL injuries and is still playing supports my general contention that knee surgeries almost routine nowadays. Also, after researching it some more, the standard prognosis for rehab/recovery is actually eight-months. Again, if the season was to start on time, he'll be more than a full calender year removed from his injury.

 

[realtick]

I like Phillips myself - a lot - but lets get realistic. That's a hell of a lot to throw at a guy with 7 career receptions and a major knee injury.

You have a valid angle if you're speaking of John Phillips being an unproven pass-catcher, but comparing Phillips to Ogletree simply based off of both having only seven receptions as a rookie is a bit offbase.

Phillips as a rookie received infinitely more reps in the offense (16 games: H-back, blocking TE, special teams coverage units, receiver) than Kevin Ogletree did in his very limited and sporadic use in 6 games as a receiver (PR/KR, coverage units).

By the second-half of the 2009 season, Phillips was an integral part of the offense.

The Cowboys don't need Phillips to prove himself as the heir-apparent to Jason Witten yet. If he comes back and is able to pick-up where he left off as a rookie, he'll proven himself a successful comeback.

 

[Hostile]

Did anybody besides me see brown leaves and gray skies and dream of California when you saw the thread title?

 

[DeaconBlues]

Such as who?

I'd challenge you to name three players in the last five years whose career have ended because of a knee injury.

BTW, knee injuries aren't some new phenomena, they've been around since players have been playing football. Prior to magnetic resonance imaging they probably weren't diagnosed as much as they are now in the modern era and availability of them (mid-1980s).

Mike Rucker, DE, Carolina Panthers 2008

Ryan Tucker, OT, Cleveland Browns 2010

John DiGiorgio, LB, Buffalo Bills 2010

Walter Jones, OT, Seattle Seahawks 2010

Please note the last three retired during your "golden age" of medical procedures. Please also note that I stopped after 4, but there are at least 2 dozen in the last 5 years, not including college.

Google can be your friend.

 

[realtick]

Mike Rucker, DE, Carolina Panthers 2008

Ryan Tucker, OT, Cleveland Browns 2010

John DiGiorgio, LB, Buffalo Bills 2010

Walter Jones, OT, Seattle Seahawks 2010

Please note the last three retired during your "golden age" of medical procedures. Please also note that I stopped after 4, but there are at least 2 dozen in the last 5 years, not including college.

Google can be your friend.

Lol, Ryan Tucker, huh? "He started in seven games in the 2004 season but a knee injury forced him to miss the remainder of the campaign. In 2005, Tucker again started in all 16 games. In 2006 he started 9 games before being placed on the non-football injury reserve list. On August 3, 2007, it was announced that Tucker tested positive for a banned substance. He was suspended for the first four games of the regular season. Upon his reinstatement, he started 8 of the team's final 12 games at the right guard position. The Browns placed Tucker on injured reserve on August 31, 2009. On March 6, 2010, Tucker was suspended for the first eight games of the regular season. The news broke a day after he announced his retirement."

Ryan Tucker was a 12-year veteran when he retired. Not to mention he had come back succesfully from knee injuries previously.

Walter Jones? Jones was also a 12-year vet when he retired.

Listing players at the end of their careers who don't want to go through the process of rehab is hardly convincing.

Wikipedia can be your friend.

Now that you listed a few players, here's a non-exhaustive list off-the-top of players who have comeback from successful knee surgery:

Tom Brady
Flozell Adams
Michael Irvin
Willis McGahee
Phillip Rivers
Deion Branch
Dan Marino
Wes Welker
Ronnie Brown
Kenny Phillips
Owen Daniels
Edjerrin James
Jamal Lewis
Duece McCallister
Cadillac Williams
Garrison Hearst

Thanks for playin' sport...

 

[gimmesix]

I am excited about this guy this coming year. If you remember he played lights out last preseason before the injury. It would be nice to get rid of the bum Bennett and get a pick for him.

Such a move would leave us with two good tight ends, so we'd just end up using the pick on another who might be a bigger "bum" than Bennett.

What exactly do people have against building depth around here?

 

[DeaconBlues]

Lol, Ryan Tucker, huh? "He started in seven games in the 2004 season but a knee injury forced him to miss the remainder of the campaign. In 2005, Tucker again started in all 16 games. In 2006 he started 9 games before being placed on the non-football injury reserve list. On August 3, 2007, it was announced that Tucker tested positive for a banned substance. He was suspended for the first four games of the regular season. Upon his reinstatement, he started 8 of the team's final 12 games at the right guard position. The Browns placed Tucker on injured reserve on August 31, 2009. On March 6, 2010, Tucker was suspended for the first eight games of the regular season. The news broke a day after he announced his retirement."

Ryan Tucker was a 12-year veteran when he retired. Not to mention he had come back succesfully from knee injuries previously.

Walter Jones? Jones was also a 12-year vet when he retired.

Listing players at the end of their careers who don't want to go through the process of rehab is hardly convincing.

Wikipedia can be your friend.

Now that you listed a few players, here's a non-exhaustive list off-the-top of players who have comeback from successful knee surgery:

Tom Brady
Flozell Adams
Michael Irvin
Willis McGahee
Phillip Rivers
Deion Branch
Dan Marino
Wes Welker
Ronnie Brown
Kenny Phillips
Owen Daniels
Edjerrin James
Jamal Lewis
Duece McCallister
Cadillac Williams
Garrison Hearst

Thanks for playin' sport...

So, now that I proved you wrong, you changed the requirements. You said I couldn't name 3 people who retired. I named four.

Tucker did not recover from his knee surgery. He played one year, then retired because (his words) his knee never recovered.

Jones could have continued his career for more than 12 years, but the knee injury cut it short. Not rehap. The injury itself.

It is easy to name the ones who recover. They make headlines, interviews and more importantly, continue to play.

The ones that don't recover are never heard from again, except through announcement of release or retirement.

You are making a bad argument. You cite the successes and are willfully blind to the failures.

Nice playing. I'll leave you to your self imposed ignorance.

 

[utrunner07]

I am excited about this guy this coming year. If you remember he played lights out last preseason before the injury. It would be nice to get rid of the bum Bennett and get a pick for him.

Agree 100% on all topics above. Though I am not sure we get more than a 7th rounder for Dear Old Marty.

 

[BHendri5]

I am excited about this guy this coming year. If you remember he played lights out last preseason before the injury. It would be nice to get rid of the bum Bennett and get a pick for him.

I agree with you

 

[Cover 2]

Bennett is a very, very good blocker and can be a good pass-catcher when you need him to, and does so at a low price.

Phillips is a question mark at best, but a possible great tight end option, again, at a low price.

You keep them both until it becomes impossible to keep all three. Witten stays by default. Whomever between Phillips and Bennett distinguishes himself better will stay. But this question shouldn't even be raised this year.

I agree completely. I can't stand Bennett's attitude, but he brings tremendous value as a blocker. He also has a ridiculous amount of potential as evidenced by his rookie season, although I doubt he ever reaches it due to immaturity.

Phillips showed promise, but he's coming off an injury and has never actually shown he can be a player. I'm pulling for him though.

I just hope that at least one of them pans out, although both of them panning out would be nice.

 

[realtick]

So, now that I proved you wrong, you changed the requirements. You said I couldn't name 3 people who retired. I named four.

Tucker did not recover from his knee surgery. He played one year, then retired because (his words) his knee never recovered.

Jones could have continued his career for more than 12 years, but the knee injury cut it short. Not rehap. The injury itself.

It is easy to name the ones who recover. They make headlines, interviews and more importantly, continue to play.

The ones that don't recover are never heard from again, except through announcement of release or retirement.

You are making a bad argument. You cite the successes and are willfully blind to the failures.

Nice playing. I'll leave you to your self imposed ignorance.

Nope, didn't change the requirements at all, just assumed that you would respond with an answer that met a certain level of intellect.

Obviously, that was a mistake.

At first, I thought I was just correcting your original ignorant claim. Now I'm seeing you're ignorant and intellectually dishonest.

Tucker retired after 12-years in the league and staring a eight-game suspension in the face if he chose to come back. From your previous posts I wouldn't expect you to muster up the intellectual honesty needed to see the connection.

The average NFL career is 3.5 seasons.

Ryan Tucker and Walter Jones both retired at the end of their 12 and 13-year careers.

What's next, are you going to tell us that Brett Favre retired because of a debilitating ankle injury, or just maybe it was because he's done physically alltogether after his 20th season?

Are you going to claim Joey Galloway had to retire after 16 seasons due to the knee tear he suffered in 2000?

"(Walter) Jones could have continued his career for more than 12 years."

Yeah, clearly you're not familiar with Walter Jones as he was on his last leg going into that last season. He had microfracture on his knee, which is a whole other can of worms, as well as injured his back in training camp his last season before being placed on injured reserve.

You say it's easy for you to name the ones that recover, that's because players come back from knee injuries regularly. I gave you a short list of players that have come back from knee surgery. Surely, you recognize those names. Why? Because they were all good enough players to have long careers in the league.

Again, the attrition rate in the NFL is 3.5 seasons. That includes a nearly endless list of names of guys who simply weren't good enough make it or dig out a career in the NFL, not because they couldn't come back from knee surgery.

Give me a guy at or somewhere near his prime, not on his last-leg in his 12-13th season, that could not make it back from a basic knee tear (as was John Phillips...ACL tear).

Sean Lee is another example of a player that's made it back.

You gave me John DiGiorgio, yet what you failed to mention is that he was waived from the Bills because he couldn't pass a physical due to bone damage to his knee.

Of course, I'm sure you'll say "bone damage...ligament damage...same thing."

My point from the jump is that knee surgeries are not uncommon and that far more players come back from them than those who are forced to retire as you ignorantly claim.

Gotta love your argument from silence "The ones that don't recover are never heard from again, except through announcement of release or retirement."

So in four seasons you've named me a guy in his 12th season facing a 8-game suspension; a guy in his 13th season who was suffering from a litany of other injuries; a guy (DiGiorgio) who retired from an entirely different circumstance (bone damage); and Mike Rucker, who had microfracture surgery.

 

[DeaconBlues]

Nope, didn't change the requirements at all, just assumed that you would respond with an answer that met a certain level of intellect.

Obviously, that was a mistake.

At first, I thought I was just correcting your original ignorant claim. Now I'm seeing you're ignorant and intellectually dishonest.

Tucker retired after 12-years in the league and staring a eight-game suspension in the face if he chose to come back. From your previous posts I wouldn't expect you to muster up the intellectual honesty needed to see the connection.

The average NFL career is 3.5 seasons.

Ryan Tucker and Walter Jones both retired at the end of their 12 and 13-year careers.

What's next, are you going to tell us that Brett Favre retired because of a debilitating ankle injury, or just maybe it was because he's done physically alltogether after his 20th season?

Are you going to claim Joey Galloway had to retire after 16 seasons due to the knee tear he suffered in 2000?

"(Walter) Jones could have continued his career for more than 12 years."

Yeah, clearly you're not familiar with Walter Jones as he was on his last leg going into that last season. He had microfracture on his knee, which is a whole other can of worms, as well as injured his back in training camp his last season before being placed on injured reserve.

You say it's easy for you to name the ones that recover, that's because players come back from knee injuries regularly. I gave you a short list of players that have come back from knee surgery. Surely, you recognize those names. Why? Because they were all good enough players to have long careers in the league.

Again, the attrition rate in the NFL is 3.5 seasons. That includes a nearly endless list of names of guys who simply weren't good enough make it or dig out a career in the NFL, not because they couldn't come back from knee surgery.

Give me a guy at or somewhere near his prime, not on his last-leg in his 12-13th season, that could not make it back from a basic knee tear (as was John Phillips...ACL tear).

Sean Lee is another example of a player that's made it back.

You gave me John DiGiorgio, yet what you failed to mention is that he was waived from the Bills because he couldn't pass a physical due to bone damage to his knee.

Of course, I'm sure you'll say "bone damage...ligament damage...same thing."

My point from the jump is that knee surgeries are not uncommon and that far more players come back from them than those who are forced to retire as you ignorantly claim.

Gotta love your argument from silence "The ones that don't recover are never heard from again, except through announcement of release or retirement."

So in four seasons you've named me a guy in his 12th season facing a 8-game suspension; a guy in his 13th season who was suffering from a litany of other injuries; a guy (DiGiorgio) who retired from an entirely different circumstance (bone damage); and Mike Rucker, who had microfracture surgery.

That's alot of words. Here let me simplfy for you:

I didn't know that. I was wrong.

See, if you just went with that, maybe the conversation could continue. You said something that I proved false. Instead of acknowledging it, you bring in years of service, not wanting to rehap, other excuses blah blah blah.

We were discusing knee injuries. Bone on bone due to cartlidge damage is an knee injury. A 13 year vet, other injuries or not, stated he was retiring due to a knee injury. Microfracture surgery for a knee injury.

You said I couldn't find 3 guys who retired due to knee injuries in the last five years. No other qualifications. I found 4.

 

[realtick]

That's alot of words. Here let me simplfy for you:

I didn't know that. I was wrong.

See, if you just went with that, maybe the conversation could continue. You said something that I proved false. Instead of acknowledging it, you bring in years of service, not wanting to rehap, other excuses blah blah blah.

We were discusing knee injuries. Bone on bone due to cartlidge damage is an knee injury. A 13 year vet, other injuries or not, stated he was retiring due to a knee injury. Microfracture surgery for a knee injury.

You said I couldn't find 3 guys who retired due to knee injuries in the last five years. No other qualifications. I found 4.

Lol, you're a great example of how hurt pride can make people intellectually dishonest, as if they're saving face.

Let me help you, it's rehab, not "rehap."

Nevermind continuing the conversation, I've already demonstrated your claims are bunk. Now you're hanging your hat on the fact I wasn't specific enough for your remedial intellect (....but, but you just said to name some players that retired...).

You didn't prove anything false except that you're full of crap. Despite giving you further detail to work with, you haven't answered with anything but trying to conflate your original misguided answers to fit with the challenge.

You voiced your concerned over John Phillips recovering from his knee injury (a basic ACL tear) and cited the uncertainty of players coming back from such injuries as if they are typically career-enders.

I responded back stating that was essentially crap and asked you to name three players in the last four or five years that have had to retire due to knee injuries. As in players (such as John Phillips...at or near their prime) that had to retire prematurely because they couldn't come back from an injury like Phillips.

You, grasping at straws, bringing up two players at the end of their careers; one that had microfracture surgery and one that had a entirely seperate knee issue.

But never mind all that, let's discuss the crap you originally tried to forward as fact:

"Players are able to get back on the field in less than a year, but they're not 100%. It takes an additional year.

[...] But more players are injured, then never heard from again, than success stories."

Provide a single shred of evidence for any of those bogus claims you just made in bold.

 

[Idgit]

Unlike many, I have complete fail that John Phillips will come back just fine. And I think he's a heck of a good TE, and has shown that already.

That said, I want him taking Gronkowski's snaps and not Bennett's. Phillips over Gronkowski is a definite upgrade. Why weaken the team by trading away a contributor you're just going to have to replace from the draft, anyway?

 

[DanteEXT]

I can name 2 off the top of my head in the last 10 years. Jamal Anderson and Anthony Lucas.

http://www.emaxhealth.com/1506/acl-injuries-often-career-ending-nfl-players

 

[Iago33]

Did anybody besides me see brown leaves and gray skies and dream of California when you saw the thread title?

I have no idea what you're talking about old man. Why don't you go take a walk . . . on a winter's day. You might want to stop by some religious establishment while you're at it.

 

[Hostile]

I have no idea what you're talking about old man. Why don't you go take a walk . . . on a winter's day. You might want to stop by some religious establishment while you're at it.

Should I get down on my knees and pretend to pray?

 

[Stautner]

Owen Daniels was coming off his third ACL knee surgery.

I'm guessing that had a lot to do with his recovery. I'm not sure if they were all on the same knee, but I'll venture to say he's had at least two on one knee. Not to mention his injury occured in Week 8 of the 2008 season, compared to Phillips' preseason Week 1 injury last year.

Ironically, the fact he's had three ACL injuries and is still playing supports my general contention that knee surgeries almost routine nowadays. Also, after researching it some more, the standard prognosis for rehab/recovery is actually eight-months. Again, if the season was to start on time, he'll be more than a full calender year removed from his injury.

You have a valid angle if you're speaking of John Phillips being an unproven pass-catcher, but comparing Phillips to Ogletree simply based off of both having only seven receptions as a rookie is a bit offbase.

Phillips as a rookie received infinitely more reps in the offense (16 games: H-back, blocking TE, special teams coverage units, receiver) than Kevin Ogletree did in his very limited and sporadic use in 6 games as a receiver (PR/KR, coverage units).

By the second-half of the 2009 season, Phillips was an integral part of the offense.

The Cowboys don't need Phillips to prove himself as the heir-apparent to Jason Witten yet. If he comes back and is able to pick-up where he left off as a rookie, he'll proven himself a successful comeback.

Look, I'm not saying my examples are absolutley identical, no variation examples, but the point remains that Phillips has very little NFL history to judge by and is coming back from a serious knee injury.

And I am not saying he can't come back and do a great job, and in fact, i suspect he can. But why not wait until we actually see it rather than getting rid of people based completely on assumption?

IF Phillips were a proven veteran it would be easier to gamble, or if he hadn't missed an entire season it would be easier to gamble, but gambles need to be based on at least something concrete, and he is neither a proven vet or guaranteed to be healthy.

So why not wait? If Phillips comes back shows he is strong and healthy and has learned and matured as a player, we can still get rid of Bennett, but how in the world does it make sense until then?

All I'm saying is that we cshould do the smart thing and keep our backsides as covered as possible until we have some concrete evidence to judge Phillips and his return from injury.

 

[realtick]

I can name 2 off the top of my head in the last 10 years. Jamal Anderson and Anthony Lucas.

http://www.emaxhealth.com/1506/acl-injuries-often-career-ending-nfl-players

Jamal Anderson and Anthony Lucas are great examples. Anderson was certainly in the prime of his career and Lucas was young player who kept suffering knee injuries (although it was ultimately a cracked knee/patella that ended his career not a ligament tear).

I never claimed guys always come back from basic ligament tear. ACL, PCL or MCL injuries are not uncommon and the diagnosis, treatment, rehab and prognosis are much better for players suffering these injuries.

Guys like Jamal Anderson and Anthony Lucas are certainly the exception and not the expectation.

 

[DanteEXT]

Jamal Anderson and Anthony Lucas are great examples. Anderson was certainly in the prime of his career and Lucas was young player who kept suffering knee injuries (although it was ultimately a cracked knee/patella that ended his career not a ligament tear).

I never claimed guys always come back from basic ligament tear. ACL, PCL or MCL injuries are not uncommon and the diagnosis, treatment, rehab and prognosis are much better for players suffering these injuries.

Guys like Jamal Anderson and Anthony Lucas are certainly the exception and not the expectation.

I didn't think you did. I just saw you ask for some examples.

Seriously though, medical science is much better now than 20-30 years ago for knee injuries. No reason not to hope or even think Phillips makes it back 100% but I'm not counting on it as sure thing.