Kirwan: More than just sacks go into the ranking of defensive MVPs... Ware

WoodysGirl

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By Pat Kirwan | NFL.com
Senior Analyst

Most Valuable Player discussions can dominate my radio show on Sirius, with a number of interesting candidates on offense and defense. I thought I would make an attempt to quantify the defensive candidates so an informed conversation can follow this report.

There are a number of good pass rushers this season, a point that was driven home this weekend as the top nine pass rushers collected 16.5 sacks. Jared Allen, Mario Williams and DeMarcus Ware each had three sacks and the race for sack leader is much more intense than last year. Allen led the NFL with 15.5 sacks last year, a number nearly matched this season by Ware (15) with four games remaining. Eight other players could match Allen's mark from 2007.

But are sacks enough of a measure as to whom the defensive MVP should be? I think it is important to look deeper into the overall production for that answer.

Here's a look at the top nine outside pass rushers, taking into account the following factors: sacks, quarterback knockdowns, quarterback hurries, tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, safeties, passes defended, touchdowns scored, and interceptions. Players are deducted a point for roughing the passer and personal foul penalties. Tackles are not an official statistic because they are subjective, so I awarded one point for every 10 tackles. These 11 categories should give us a pretty good indication of who is the defensive MVP.

Of course, a defensive tackle such as Albert Haynesworth will get worthy consideration and a few late risers like Robert Mathis or Dwight Freeney may be in the discussion by the end of the season. But here are the top nine players when you add up the points. After looking at how the list finished up, I'm comfortable with the standings at this point. With four games left, however, that can still change.

http://i5.***BLOCKED***/albums/y164/nbr1diva/dmvp.gif

The top four players all line up in the 3-4 defense, and their ability to drop into coverage does help their overall numbers. But their sack numbers, quarterback knockdowns and hurries really show that they attack a lot more than they drop into coverage. I made note of the leaders in each category (*) and Pittsburgh's James Harrison not only had the best point total but he excelled in four categories.

You may like someone on this list over Harrison, and that's okay, but these are the numbers that make for a good argument either way you go with the defensive MVP.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80d02ea6&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true
 

tomson75

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I immediately look at Ware's PD's and notice there are none there....

Dismissed.
 

aikemirv

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Well, I already question his numbers since he did not get the pass defensed by Ware in the game a couple of weeks ago - against Gore I believe - awesome play by Ware!
 

cowboys2233

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WoodysGirl;2460606 said:
By Pat Kirwan | NFL.com
Senior Analyst
But are sacks enough of a measure as to whom the defensive MVP should be? I think it is important to look deeper into the overall production for that answer.

Yeah, let's do that...

Here's a look at the top nine outside pass rushers, taking into account the following factors: sacks, quarterback knockdowns, quarterback hurries, tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, safeties, passes defended, touchdowns scored, and interceptions. Players are deducted a point for roughing the passer and personal foul penalties. Tackles are not an official statistic because they are subjective, so I awarded one point for every 10 tackles. These 11 categories should give us a pretty good indication of who is the defensive MVP.

Why? Because you chose to put together the statistics that best suited your needs? Call my crazy, but a forced fumble is less about a great defensive play and more about a running back's failure. Recovered fumbles? Are you kidding? That's far more about being in the right place at the right time. And what the heck are these "tackle" statistics? I have a feeling each of these guys have made more tackles than what is being shown here. Way to be clear about what the heck you're talking about, Kirwan.
 

03EBZ06

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I believe Harrison has 3 PDs, not 4. Whenever incorrect stats are used, you have to wonder about a person who generated a particular formula.

I'm not saying Kirwan is biased or anything but anyone can come up with formula that fits what they believe is a right one and I'm sure some one will disagree or shoot it down.

I don't believe hurries and knockdowns should be given as much of credit as sacks, I believe there is a vast difference between assists and solo tackles and should be weighed accordingly...etc
 

superpunk

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I don't think he has Ware's stats correct. It's pretty cool that he leads the league in sacks and knockdowns, but it seems unlikely that he would in turn be credited with so few "hurries".

I do think he should have put in Tackles for loss. Ware has quite a few of those, and they are really just as big a play as a sack.

Good analytical approach, I just think (a) he has incorrect numbers and (b) he used alot of irrelevant stats.
 

theogt

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It's funny. You can tell Kirwan's trying to be the intelligent stats guy, but he just can't quite get it figured out.
 

tomson75

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bootyhunta;2460636 said:
I seem to remeber 2 or 3 times this season that he has defended a pass.

If Kirwan actually 'watched' the players he's attempting to evaluate, he'd remember them as well. Guess that's too much to ask.
 

adamknite

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tomson75;2460644 said:
If Kirwan actually 'watched' the players he's attempting to evaluate, he'd remember them as well. Guess that's too much to ask.

Yeah, the one on Gore was hard to miss considering he was 1 on 1 with him.
 

Vintage

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IOW, Kirwan is saying Demarcus has been one of the best defensive players in the league this year.

I'm sooooooooooooooooo mad!


Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
 

Bonecrusher#31

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Didn't we just see Ware knock away a pass from Betts in the Skin game that highlighted and shown in slow mo by Madden ?
 

tomson75

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Vintage;2460681 said:
IOW, Kirwan is saying Demarcus has been one of the best defensive players in the league this year.

I'm sooooooooooooooooo mad!


Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Who cares what he's saying? I don't think anyone is mad....as you are so obviously trying to insinuate, but it's still pretty lame that these guys that are paid to write about this stuff (or 'analyze' if you're into polishing turds) can't get the damn facts right. It's not that hard.

If you're going to so obviously base your whole analysis on stats, then at least get the right ones.

Hell, trying watching the guys play, Kirwan. Sometimes it's fun!


I guess it is asking too much.

Having said that....I still think Harrison deserves DPOY over Ware. Who knows though...look who got it last year. They get these things wrong fairly often.
 

Chocolate Lab

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theogt;2460635 said:
It's funny. You can tell Kirwan's trying to be the intelligent stats guy, but he just can't quite get it figured out.

After listening to him on Sirius for a year, I think there's a lot of things he can't get figured out.

He's one of those guys who sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but so many of his assessments are just wrong. Hard to believe he was a real NFL GM.
 

cowboys2233

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Vintage;2460681 said:
IOW, Kirwan is saying Demarcus has been one of the best defensive players in the league this year.

I'm sooooooooooooooooo mad!


Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!


Yes, but it's only to substantiate his argument that Harrison is the MVP. Leaving Ware off the list would quickly invalidate any point he was trying to make.

Sorry, but his flawed weighting and incorrect stats point me to one conclusion -- he is totally biased and tries to uses a few numbers to make him seem less so. Unfortunately, it didn't work. :laugh2:
 

cowboys2233

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Chocolate Lab;2460704 said:
After listening to him on Sirius for a year, I think there's a lot of things he can't get figured out.

He's one of those guys who sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but so many of his assessments are just wrong. Hard to believe he was a real NFL GM.

Yeah, but wasn't he the GM for the NY Jets when they went something like 1-15? You're right, him being a GM is pretty hard to fathom, that he was a BAD GM is very easy to imagine.
 

AbeBeta

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tomson75;2460609 said:
I immediately look at Ware's PD's and notice there are none there....

Dismissed.

I recall a few ... one really good one
 

BrAinPaiNt

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superpunk;2460628 said:
I don't think he has Ware's stats correct. It's pretty cool that he leads the league in sacks and knockdowns, but it seems unlikely that he would in turn be credited with so few "hurries".

I do think he should have put in Tackles for loss. Ware has quite a few of those, and they are really just as big a play as a sack.

Good analytical approach, I just think (a) he has incorrect numbers and (b) he used alot of irrelevant stats.

Agreed...oh and nice Lemmy avatar.
 
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