CFZ Let's talk west coast offense

[CowboyoWales]

Its all good. From what I have read this type of offense requires impeccable timing routes and hitting receivers in stride for YAC. Aikman was extremely good at those types of passes. Dak is going to struggle if this is the route they go.

Yep, and it just goes to show how two people can come up with the exact same conclusion.

 

[Chuck 54]

Contrary to some conceptions, Mike’s West Coast offense is definitely NOT all short passes.

What you won’t see much of is 3 receivers all running fly routes or all hitches or all curls at the same time.
There will be more horizontal routes where receivers catch the ball on the run with room to keep moving across the field or cutting up. You will see more RBs and receivers running routes from a position in the backfield. Mike moved wr Montgomery to the RB position long before Deebo Samual was in HS. This was out of necessity when his RBs were injured, but he also ran many of his routes from there. Later, Devontae Adams got his start running routes from the backfield. There will be screens and plenty of the power run game if the personnel is there.

most importantly, most pass plays will not only stretch the defense horizontally, but receivers will be running routes at different levels, the short slants and crossing routes, the intermediate curls, hitches and skinny posts, and the fly, post, corner, and double moves. It puts defenders in a bind and requires they tackle well. The QB’s progressions in any offense are more logical when each route takes a different amount of time to develop. However, there will be fan whining at times about a deeper receiver being open because unless the deep route is predetermined by single coverage pre-snap, the QB should be getting rid of the ball to the first guy he sees open.

In my opinion, Zeke will be a little limited in this offense, and we should still look for a big blocking TE in the draft.

 

[acr731]

Yep, and it just goes to show how two people can come up with the exact same conclusion.

Genetics? My family on my mother's side is old English and Welch. They have ties to the early American settlers from the 1600's.

 

[Chuck 54]

This is going to be a problem for QB1.... his accuracy is questionable and most slant passes are behind the receivers. He also has trouble reading defenses quickly.

I think Dak will surprise you. He was very good with these crossing routes at times with Dez, Cooper, CD, even Wilson for one year, but with all the option routes in Moore’s offense, I think there was always a little hesitation in making sure the WR saw what he saw and wasn’t going to pull up in a zone.

Reads in the west coast offense, especially what Mike did in GB are more logical than in Moore’s offense because plays are threatening various levels of the defense. It is very QB friendly because the QB looks short, then intermediate, then deeper. Routes are timed out more logically. It is much harder when 3 receivers are all running curls or all running flies.

 

[big dog cowboy]

The West Coast offense requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players. In addition, it requires the quarterback to be able to quickly pick the best one of five receivers to throw to, certainly much more quickly than in previously used systems.

 

[Cmac]

Yep, we're at the stage that we need a play caller and OC that suits Dak's talents and not the other way round.

This is one of the pro's/cons with our whole Dak/HC question and our 'commitment' to drafting a QB. We arent going to draft an 'elite' QB, however we could certainly draft one that's not perfect (ala Dak) but has qualities consistent with how we're going to play.

.....no reasons to change from Dak, yet. Besides, there is no elite QB at our pick. Never been an interception machine like this past year. Until the new OC/QB coach sits down with him....all off-season, including an eye exam......a good OC will fit his scheme in to his players' skillset. Our initial and overlooked area of concern seems to be the OL. We need a "dog" that has bad intentions on the front line. Preferably in the middle. Until we become a well-rounded offense, we are as predictable as the next day. The offense doesn't need Dak to be Dan Fouts Jr. I'm ok with the Dink & Dunk Dak, as long as chains move.....and then the occassionally deep ball when presented. I'm ok with Kellen Moore (Air Coryell Jr) moving on. (See the connection).

Believe or not.....Zeke is valuable right now......"On the field" valuable. Yes, he needs to have salary adjusted, without question. I say so, because TPollard is injured.....so Malik Davis needs to continue to improve in the offseason and be able to catch passes.....because he can extend TPollard (if necessary).....time to continue to recover. This means Malik Davis assumes TPollard role, as we've known it.

We are back to square one with TPollard.....a "pitch count", until we know he has "fully recovered". To all the Salary Capologists on the board.......be careful. We can have something in the backfield.....but we can't have nothing.

 

[Gaede]

So it seems we have some good fits, and some bad ones.

Bad fits:
Most obvious is Dak. Contrary to popular board opinion, accuracy isn't an issue. But making the best decision, and quickly, is. Having him make quicker reads could be a real issue.

Zeke.

Gallup. Doesn't get separation. Or YAC.

Good fits:
Pollard. Franchise him. He's a great fit.

Lamb. This is ideal for him.

TEs. I think the two young guys will do great.

Overall, not bad. But we desperately need new reviewers and, obviously, a different QB. Since the latter isn't changing, they should really invest in more OL help and two new receivers.

 

[doomsday9084]

Contrary to some conceptions, Mike’s West Coast offense is definitely NOT all short passes.

What you won’t see much of is 3 receivers all running fly routes or all hitches or all curls at the same time.
There will be more horizontal routes where receivers catch the ball on the run with room to keep moving across the field or cutting up. You will see more RBs and receivers running routes from a position in the backfield. Mike moved wr Montgomery to the RB position long before Deebo Samual was in HS. This was out of necessity when his RBs were injured, but he also ran many of his routes from there. Later, Devontae Adams got his start running routes from the backfield. There will be screens and plenty of the power run game if the personnel is there.

most importantly, most pass plays will not only stretch the defense horizontally, but receivers will be running routes at different levels, the short slants and crossing routes, the intermediate curls, hitches and skinny posts, and the fly, post, corner, and double moves. It puts defenders in a bind and requires they tackle well. The QB’s progressions in any offense are more logical when each route takes a different amount of time to develop. However, there will be fan whining at times about a deeper receiver being open because unless the deep route is predetermined by single coverage pre-snap, the QB should be getting rid of the ball to the first guy he sees open.

In my opinion, Zeke will be a little limited in this offense, and we should still look for a big blocking TE in the draft.

Good post. I'll piggy back on.

The guy who doesn't fit at all is Zeke. He was never a great pass receiver but last year he was horrific.

The offense itself isn't nearly as specific as the OP laid it out. As Chuck just said, any OC can salt in deep throws, a power run game, etc. From my understanding the big difference between the Garrett / Linehan type offense Dallas had been running is that its not timing based. You aren't throwing the ball before the WR cuts. When it works (like with Aikman / Irvin) it can be freaking deadly but when it doesn't its ugly.

Yes, Dak is going to have to make reads but that's QB 101. I don't think its possible to have an offense where the QB doesn't have to figure out where to throw the ball.

The big concern I have is that the offense requires accurate throws to hit players moving horizontally to the QB. You want to hit people in stride to run up RAC yards. That's great for Pollard and CeeDee. Dak has really struggled with this at times.

 

[DogFace]

It really doesn't matter what you want to call this offense. it's will need to be tailored to Dak and his limited abilities.

In every offense, at some point you have to throw down field. otherwise defenses will do exactly what they're doing now attack the run, attack the short pass, and play zone challenging you to throw at least intermediate routes.
I wish hard knocks would cover us this year pure entertainment.

Great post. Thanks a lot.

 

[BoyzBlaster]

I'll believe it when I see it. I see a lot of people speculating about introducing the kinds of throws Dak simply cannot reliably make. All this talk about an exciting new offensive schemes is just the latest iteration of what our fan base does: ignoring the actual problems, focusing on things that won't make a difference, living in a fantasy land, and letting ownership get a pass. It's no different than the draft talk where I see people talking about drafting the next QB this year.......in the later rounds. You have to laugh. QB's drafted outside the first couple rounds almost never turn into anything. You get what we've had since the salary cap. A whole lot of mediocrity and 'almost'. When are people going to start showing up to games with paper bags on their heads like the Saints' fans did?

 

[Cowboyny]

If you like me, have limited knowledge of what to expect from WCO, the kind of players who best fit the system. Please feel to add any tips or nuggets. I'm trying to learn as much as possible (lol).

I will go on and ask the obvious question.......is the offense a good fit for Dak?


What is the West Coast offense in football?


Walsh. His “West Coast offense” was a ball-control offense that featured short passes and quick slanting pass routes by receivers and running backs. This resulted in coverage mismatches and space for the backs and receivers to break long runs. Walsh was inducted into the Pro Football Hall…

What is the basic West Coast offense?


The West Coast offense requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players. In addition, it requires the quarterback to be able to quickly pick the best one of five receivers to throw to, certainly much more quickly than in previously used systems. I'm guessing this means every play will likely have an open receiver.

https://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/13/5406774/football-101-what-is-a-west-coast-offense

Key Player Types​

Typical players in a WCO are:

Quarterback: Mobile, accurate passer who makes good decisions. Does not have to have the strongest arm, since short passes are the key.

Linemen: Mobile, agile blockers who can roll a pocket with a mobile quarterback. The WCO is not a power running game, so zone blocking is more prominent.

Wide receivers: Accurate route runners, with good timing with the quarterback. Needs to be able to separate himself in traffic and make a play after the catch on shorter routes.

Running backs: Need to be a receiving threat, with good route-running skills. Also needs to be able to pass block, protecting the quarterback on 5-step drops. The offense will look to break longer runs later in a game, so a home run threat running back, who can step up and pass block, is ideal. Does not necessarily need to be the biggest, power runner.

Tight ends: Needs to be a blocker, as well as a possession receiver. Has to have good hands, able to catch a ball in traffic, especially over the middle as a progression target.

-Eli Manning who also wasn't a great accurate QB, was his best under MacDoo as his oc/hc.
-Lineman don't need to pass protect as long as it's not a 5 step offense, more of a three step and fire.
-Need strong route runners who excel at getting yards after a catch.
-A strong receiving TE, RB are needed
-Many teams in the early stages of the WCO had good receiving FB's

 

[Cowboyny]

Dak throwing to tight coverage is a no-no, we seen that too many times with the INT's.
He also seems to be a tick behind as to where and when to throw. Hesitant at times. Other times he is quick to the throw, but not consistently.

It may not be a true WCO system though, but a hybrid of what is there, and a WCO type offense added.

I don't study film, nor care to do so. But I know enough of the base offenses and defenses to see things (like the eyeball test) . Like Dak and tight coverage most of the time does not go well, or it did not go well in 2022. So I will rely upon our film fans and see what they think.

What cause many of his interceptions this year was that the receiver and him read the play differently. All those options routes will now be taken out of the offense, where Dak will be throwing more to a spot where the receiver needs to be.

 

[Cowboyny]

We currently have got neither type of receiver.

Lamb is a great yac receiver and has improved his route running. Problem is, that all we got.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

If you like me, have limited knowledge of what to expect from WCO, the kind of players who best fit the system. Please feel to add any tips or nuggets. I'm trying to learn as much as possible (lol).

I will go on and ask the obvious question.......is the offense a good fit for Dak?


What is the West Coast offense in football?


Walsh. His “West Coast offense” was a ball-control offense that featured short passes and quick slanting pass routes by receivers and running backs. This resulted in coverage mismatches and space for the backs and receivers to break long runs. Walsh was inducted into the Pro Football Hall…

What is the basic West Coast offense?


The West Coast offense requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players. In addition, it requires the quarterback to be able to quickly pick the best one of five receivers to throw to, certainly much more quickly than in previously used systems. I'm guessing this means every play will likely have an open receiver.

https://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/13/5406774/football-101-what-is-a-west-coast-offense

Key Player Types​

Typical players in a WCO are:

Quarterback: Mobile, accurate passer who makes good decisions. Does not have to have the strongest arm, since short passes are the key.

Linemen: Mobile, agile blockers who can roll a pocket with a mobile quarterback. The WCO is not a power running game, so zone blocking is more prominent.

Wide receivers: Accurate route runners, with good timing with the quarterback. Needs to be able to separate himself in traffic and make a play after the catch on shorter routes.

Running backs: Need to be a receiving threat, with good route-running skills. Also needs to be able to pass block, protecting the quarterback on 5-step drops. The offense will look to break longer runs later in a game, so a home run threat running back, who can step up and pass block, is ideal. Does not necessarily need to be the biggest, power runner.

Tight ends: Needs to be a blocker, as well as a possession receiver. Has to have good hands, able to catch a ball in traffic, especially over the middle as a progression target.

there is no pure one thing or other exist any more. all offenses have elements of west coast, timing, etc. the key is the pass routes you call in each play to scheme players open and the QB finding the mismatch and the open reciever more often than not. McVay's offense, though many will argue is a version of west coast. the key is to create opportunities for RAC, you still have to attack deep. the key is attacking the 9 passing zones, so not to allow the defense to settle into it, and keep the defense guessing and forcing them to defend the whole field. the problem with Moore was that he couldn't do that enough and he couldn't do that against better defenses and he would revert to some bad habits and guessing, like WR screens, curl routes and send everyone deep.

 

[Cowboyny]

We truly don't have any idea what MM's offense is going to look like, he could pull a Dan Quinn and modernized his whole scheme. With the additions of Schott/Solari, it looks like fixing their run game is a top priority. He is going to develop his scheme around our team's strengths.

 

[Ring6]

I expect Tolbert, a YAC beast in college, to be looking forward to this fundamental change.

 

[PAPPYDOG]

If you like me, have limited knowledge of what to expect from WCO, the kind of players who best fit the system. Please feel to add any tips or nuggets. I'm trying to learn as much as possible (lol).

I will go on and ask the obvious question.......is the offense a good fit for Dak?


What is the West Coast offense in football?


Walsh. His “West Coast offense” was a ball-control offense that featured short passes and quick slanting pass routes by receivers and running backs. This resulted in coverage mismatches and space for the backs and receivers to break long runs. Walsh was inducted into the Pro Football Hall…

What is the basic West Coast offense?


The West Coast offense requires a quarterback who throws extremely accurately, and often blindly, very close to opposing players. In addition, it requires the quarterback to be able to quickly pick the best one of five receivers to throw to, certainly much more quickly than in previously used systems. I'm guessing this means every play will likely have an open receiver.

https://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/13/5406774/football-101-what-is-a-west-coast-offense

Key Player Types​

Typical players in a WCO are:

Quarterback: Mobile, accurate passer who makes good decisions. Does not have to have the strongest arm, since short passes are the key.

Linemen: Mobile, agile blockers who can roll a pocket with a mobile quarterback. The WCO is not a power running game, so zone blocking is more prominent.

Wide receivers: Accurate route runners, with good timing with the quarterback. Needs to be able to separate himself in traffic and make a play after the catch on shorter routes.

Running backs: Need to be a receiving threat, with good route-running skills. Also needs to be able to pass block, protecting the quarterback on 5-step drops. The offense will look to break longer runs later in a game, so a home run threat running back, who can step up and pass block, is ideal. Does not necessarily need to be the biggest, power runner.

Tight ends: Needs to be a blocker, as well as a possession receiver. Has to have good hands, able to catch a ball in traffic, especially over the middle as a progression target.

Quarterback: Mobile, accurate passer who makes good decisions. Does not have to have the strongest arm, since short passes are the key.


Dink and dunk Dak in the house short ones are his bread and butter but the only problem is he's not very smart or accurate.
P.S.Mobile well let's just say he runs like the lego man and is one hit away from retirement with that bionic ankle of his.

 

[BoyzBlaster]

Quarterback: Mobile, accurate passer who makes good decisions. Does not have to have the strongest arm, since short passes are the key.


Dink and dunk Dak in the house short ones are his bread and butter but the only problem is he's not very smart or accurate.
P.S.Mobile well let's just say he runs like the lego man and is one hit away from retirement with that bionic ankle of his.

You've talked me into it - let's get Dak running more! Honestly an injury is probably the quickest way to turn the page toward some kind of possibly brighter future.

 

[doomsday9084]

This is somewhat relevant. Its what Belichick wrote up in 1991 as far as his overall offensive philosophy. Not a west coast guy but it generally speaks to how he wins.

My point is that I don't really think that Belichick is all about scheme. He basically has a philosophy as far as how to win and what type of players you need to do it. He then tailors the playbook to what he has. The QB stuff doesn't look good for Dak though.

I have lightly read that is what MM does to some degree. As such, i think that people might be taking some of the stuff too far with the WCO. I doubt that MM is just going to implement a playbook from 1986 and tell Dak to figure it out or else.

 

[PAPPYDOG]

You've talked me into it - let's get Dak running more! Honestly an injury is probably the quickest way to turn the page toward some kind of possibly brighter future.

I expect him to get injured again this coming season as he is injury prone.
It's more mental with him as his sub-conscience desires to be injured to avoid the pressures the job brings him.
And ya it shows in big games when the egg-laying goes into overdrive and he's throwing the ball into triple coverage!
Mentally he has major issues and the job is way over his talent grade well you get the idea here.