lovie smith can do it, payton can... why can't parcells?

iceberg

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in 2004, lovie smith took over the bears coming off a 2003 record of 7-9, he did drop to 5-11 in his first year. then he flipped it to 11-5 and now another year later, he's in the superbowl.

last year the saints ended their year homeless and with a 3-13 record. enter payton and a couple of solid players and suddenly they go to the NFC title game only to lose to said chicago.

like it or not, *this* is the baramoter of a successful coach in today's watered down NFL. this isn't like when i first started watching and you needed a franchise qb (although one always does make it easier) and then to build long term. i still want the long term approach, but getting getting early success should be easier than it used to be.

reference chicago and new orleans for an example.

now, enter parcells. likely one of the top coaches in the league and a HOF lock when he's eligible. he's proved he could do it "old school" and does have an eye for talent. yet in his tenure we go around .504 ball in 4 years.

new orleans can turn it around in 1 year.
chicago in 2, superbowl by 3.

again, like it or not this is how a successful coach will be measured - *end results* not past history. i know there are a lot of teams that for whatever resaon can't turn it around so i also know it's not as easy as chicago and new orleans have made it look.

or is it?

no one really hailed payton as a genious while in dallas. he was the dude parcells brought in from the giants when the giants didn't even want him around. so when you look at a rex ryan and wonder why he's not getting any looks, you can also look at payton to see that having people want to interview you is nice, can validate your qualifications, but it isn't the sole guideline of the coaches ability.

parcells has done some good things for dallas. though it took awhile to happen, we found our qb of the future and hopefully at 26, we didn't waste some good years on the clipboard.

we do have more talent across the board except for the OL where we've just historically had problems there so that can't all be parcells. players we cut these days get picked up by other teams where before, they just went onto their blue-collar life out of the NFL.

he's revamped the defense that by and large could be argued didn't need it, but it's done and hopefully someone more familiar with the 3-4 can do a better job of pushing the players like roy williams to quit going for highlight hits and play like we know he can.

then again, the coaches have to play him where he's best suited, not where "the system" calls for.

herein is my biggest issue. parcells is a coach who wants his system to work and won't deviate when it doesn't, but will kiss 'em all when it does. the adjsutments he may make are for the system itself it seems, and not to take advantage of the players he has on the field.

unfortuantely many coaches are like this and not as many, it would seem, coach according to what they have, not what they want.

we have an owner willing to get whatever parcells wants (and then some in TO) and pay the pricetag for it. he's turned over control to parcells almost w/o question and w/o interference. in a time where going from gutter to penthouse can take 2-3 years if done right, we're sitting in a nice average neighborhood a few miles away from the older side of town we used to live in.

hardly a valid upgrade for the money spent and talent assembled.

we do live in a "fix it now" society where when a war isn't won by dinner, maybe even after a few nights, it's a failure. people today have high (even if unrealistic) expectations that better be met or you hit the curb pretty quickly. the NFL is geared for this and every year we see a few teams smart enough to take advantage of that and they catch a wave and make it fit according to todays rules.

yet here we sit, the dallas "americas team" cowboys .504 in 4 years, and 2 playoff appearances that didn't turn out as hoped.

it would be different if we went toe to toe with philly when the division title was on the line and the defense had a fire and played to win. they just didn't seem to care, however. blame them? you can - but where do they look for their leadership? to a man who every year has to ask "do i feel like doing this"?

that has to draw on a player regardless of their being paid to be a professional. they're human first - we all are and if our leader waffled so much we'd have to ask why and to what extent is his dedication to the team? if little to none, why should i?

maybe that's not fair. it is a "team" effort after all and that concept alone means you can't simply blame 1 party and call it a day. the players could do better and someone on the D could step up and take over the leadership role. but no one has and we don't have those types of players.

but parcells has picked them all by now, so now what? we can't blame parcells for his indecision and we can't admit (well, some of us can't) that the indecision hurts the team but we can blame the players for not executing, but yet, parcells brought them here.

if you rise up from fandom and love of bp and just look at the overall state of the cowboys you'll see a team in disarray and w/o solid direction.

does payton have to soul search now to determine if he's coming back to NO to build off his momentum?

nope.

smith is now off and running to the superbowl in 3 years and after his interview last night, i DO hope jones makes a play for him. he far and away deserves $5.5mil more than our current coach.

even if only for the fact he's proven he can win in today's game of football. parcells has yet to do it but many keep hope he will. many see slight progress as a good thing while i see it as holding us back from pushing harder.

i'm sure we're about to see more excuses than the principals office on senior day, but in the end parcells simply isn't getting it done and excuses only go so far.

unless you're parcells, then you get a few more to take with you.

if he comes back 1 more year, that's pretty much his last excuse and i'll hope he finds the fire he used to have and pushes himself and the team to do what they can in a manner in in which we know/feel they can do it. we've beaten indy - beat the hell out of them to end their winning streak.

we know this team can play. we know it quit in december. we know it's done that 4 decembers in a row. we changed a lot of the pieces...we've added and subtracted some minor coaches around...so what's the constant?

parcells. there's likely a few more but in the end you are what you are and i don't care who you were before that.

todays nfl has shown the right man for the job can get it done in short order. why do we keep waiting for yesterday? i dunno. but it does test your sanity and patience.

so why can't you do it parcells, and what makes you think you can if you get 1 more year?
 

Doomsday101

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How long was Dungy at Indy before his 1st SB? For Smith and Payton things fell exactly right for them this year and both coaches had a heck of a season.
 

iceberg

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Doomsday101;1326357 said:
How long was Dungy at Indy before his 1st SB? For Smith and Payton things fell exactly right for them this year and both coaches had a heck of a season.

and how long has dungy been in there and competitive just the same?

like i said, i pointed to 2 examples of how it can be done and i did say it's not as easy perhaps as they make it seem. but if you have a HOF coach who's "all that" and a bucket of chicken, is 4 years too much time to get the results he's gotten when his pupil turned a 3-13 team around in 1?

they did have a heck of a season - and that takes work, dedication and passion for the game.

work i see from bill. but i don't see the rest. it's not fair to look at the team and say they should have what their leader doesn't. even if they do they're likely to go off on their own direction for lack of a better one from above, creating another set of issues and problems.

winning takes a focus. we don't have that.

why not?
 

THUMPER

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The reason why those guys can do it an Parcells can't is because they are young (relatively) with an eye to the future while Parcells is an old man hoping for one more day in the sun. I'm not just saying this, I truly believe it. He is past it and needs to retire once and for all.
 

NinePointOh

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Parcells' first season in Dallas: 10-6 (0-1 in playoffs)
Payton's first season in New Orleans: 10-6 (1-1 in playoffs)

Dallas' record in 3 seasons prior to Parcells: 15-33 (.312)
New Orleans' record in 3 seasons prior to Payton: 19-29 (.396)

Comparing their first seasons, Payton took over a team that was slightly better than Parcells' and turned out a result that was slightly better than Parcells'. And Bill didn't have the luxury of signing a Pro Bowl QB in free agency.

I'm not particularly attached to Parcells, but it's a little silly not to give him any credit for the team's immediate turnaround from the Campo era.
 

nc1054

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Give him credit for bringing in the talent, but thank God he's gone. He just didn't seem to have that spark anymore.
 

iceberg

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nc1054;1326471 said:
Give him credit for bringing in the talent, but thank God he's gone. He just didn't seem to have that spark anymore.

well, hopefully he's going to the sr bowl to look over players to help / consult. i could like that idea. but as a coach and leader on the field, he just doesn't have it anymore.

i believe in religion again!!!
 

Eddie

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Dave_in-NC;1326555 said:
They don't have a medaling Jerry Jones.

You wanna give JJ a medal? ha ha

Ok, bad joke.

BP is gone. Ding dong the witch is dead the witch is dead.

Time for youth, creativity, and some real coaching.
 

iceberg

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Dave_in-NC;1326555 said:
They don't have a medaling Jerry Jones.

yea, damn the meddling owners who only bring you 3 rings. : )

we'll see where we go from here, nc. but as always, it's an interesting ride.
 

Dave_in-NC

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iceberg;1326596 said:
yea, damn the meddling owners who only bring you 3 rings. : )

we'll see where we go from here, nc. but as always, it's an interesting ride.

We were on the up swing. Those rings were and are great memories. But you can't keep living on rings earned over a decade ago.
If Jones thinks he can coach again here's to ten more wasted years.
If owens stays there isn't any one with half a brain that wants this team. If you think for one second Jones can pass up keepin owens side show, well yer crazy.

Yup great news.
 

Bleu Star

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GRRRRRRRRRRRRREAT NEWS! That's what's most important right there --->:starspin Nothing is bigger than it in Cowboys land. Good riddance manboobs.
 

Eddie

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Excellent write up Jerry.

Here's my question now ... what is the timetable for success for the new HC?

Do we give him a year lee-way? Do we expect a minimum of 1 playoff win?

Do we expect Sean Payton-like success?

Whoever is taking over this team is inheriting a very good core of players. We're a 9-7 team with playoff aspirations.

Barry Switzer came in and won 1 Super Bowl.

Chan Gailey took over a 6-10 team, and turned it around to 10-6. But fell off his second year to 8-8, and was thus replaced.

Campo took a playoff 8-8 team and went 5-11 for three straight years.

What's expected of the new HC? How do we gauge success?
 

Rack

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NinePointOh;1326447 said:
Parcells' first season in Dallas: 10-6 (0-1 in playoffs)
Payton's first season in New Orleans: 10-6 (1-1 in playoffs)

Dallas' record in 3 seasons prior to Parcells: 15-33 (.312)
New Orleans' record in 3 seasons prior to Payton: 19-29 (.396)

Comparing their first seasons, Payton took over a team that was slightly better than Parcells' and turned out a result that was slightly better than Parcells'. And Bill didn't have the luxury of signing a Pro Bowl QB in free agency.

I'm not particularly attached to Parcells, but it's a little silly not to give him any credit for the team's immediate turnaround from the Campo era.

:hammer:

iceberg;1326354 said:
lovie smith can do it, payton can... why can't parcells?


1. Neither the Bears nor Saints play in the NFC East (they play in weak divisions, we don't).

2. The Saints signed a probowl QB in Peytons' first year. Bill had to develop one (I bet you don't give him credit for that either).

3. The Bears' D was pretty much already there before Lovie Smith got there. They added a couple of key guys, but it was already intact for the most part.

4. The Bears play in one of the weakest divisions in football.

5. We had a longer way to go then the Bears or Saints did. Remember, the Bears made it to the playoffs (13-3) a couple of years before Lovie Smith got there. We also had a longer way to go because of the competition in our division.
 

iceberg

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Dave_in-NC;1326661 said:
We were on the up swing. Those rings were and are great memories. But you can't keep living on rings earned over a decade ago.
If Jones thinks he can coach again here's to ten more wasted years.
If owens stays there isn't any one with half a brain that wants this team. If you think for one second Jones can pass up keepin owens side show, well yer crazy.

Yup great news.

yet you support a coach who was great *more* than a decade ago and was living off that rep today?

maybe i am crazy. never would deny that, no. but while i understand your angst and aprehension for the immediate future, i feel like we're finally on our way.

like i said in detox when vinnie started those last 4 games and even before then - the best we'd get out of the parcells experiement is proof that jones can and will hire a solid coach and let him coach.

however, i was wrong. we also likely found our qb of the future.

other htan that i said he'd never get there and never win a playoff game, so i viewed his tenure as wasted time. while we have made progress, it wasn't as drastic as maybe we hoped or maybe he'd have wanted to finish the job.

all we got now are maybes but i view the wasted time over and yea, am nervous jones will make the wrong call like us all

just for different reasons.

but in any event, it was time to move on, so i'm glad we did.
 

iceberg

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Eddie;1327100 said:
Excellent write up Jerry.

Here's my question now ... what is the timetable for success for the new HC?

Do we give him a year lee-way? Do we expect a minimum of 1 playoff win?

Do we expect Sean Payton-like success?

Whoever is taking over this team is inheriting a very good core of players. We're a 9-7 team with playoff aspirations.

Barry Switzer came in and won 1 Super Bowl.

Chan Gailey took over a 6-10 team, and turned it around to 10-6. But fell off his second year to 8-8, and was thus replaced.

Campo took a playoff 8-8 team and went 5-11 for three straight years.

What's expected of the new HC? How do we gauge success?

i don't think it's fair to "expect" payton or lovie success. i admitted that when i wrote it. i just said given the right circumstances, it is possible.

*if* we'd have gone into december the last 2 years fighting and trying to win across the board, i'd have viewd that as success, even if we lost. played hard, got close, i see a heart in the team fighting to win.

we've not seen that in almost any of parcells decembers.

my own gauge will be a few years to get his bearings and in the meantime, light a fire under the team and get the passion back.

i don't think we're far off but i do think we need a "back to work" attitude again that parcells didn't have because he didn't know if he wanted to go "back to work". i think that spilled over - hence my "negative influence" remark that got taken way out of proportion.

rack - some good points, but it doesn't matter. he's gone and like i also said - a whole lot of excuses remain for the bp faithful. i don't to get into it out of respect for those who did appreciate bp - that's just not cool.

i just disagree on some of your points about him and will respectfully move on.
 

aikemirv

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iceberg;1327808 said:
i don't think it's fair to "expect" payton or lovie success. i admitted that when i wrote it. i just said given the right circumstances, it is possible.
*if* we'd have gone into december the last 2 years fighting and trying to win across the board, i'd have viewd that as success, even if we lost. played hard, got close, i see a heart in the team fighting to win.

we've not seen that in almost any of parcells decembers.

my own gauge will be a few years to get his bearings and in the meantime, light a fire under the team and get the passion back.

i don't think we're far off but i do think we need a "back to work" attitude again that parcells didn't have because he didn't know if he wanted to go "back to work". i think that spilled over - hence my "negative influence" remark that got taken way out of proportion.

rack - some good points, but it doesn't matter. he's gone and like i also said - a whole lot of excuses remain for the bp faithful. i don't to get into it out of respect for those who did appreciate bp - that's just not cool.

i just disagree on some of your points about him and will respectfully move on.

How can it not be fair to expect Lovie or Peyton sucess.

They were 9-7 and 8-4 when you say that the coaches just layed down on the job.

So in your book, there should be no reason why a good coach can't take this team to 12-4 or 13-3.

I mean that is what you are saying, BP sucks and we were still 9-7 so hey, a good coach should be able to take us the distance, right?
 

Big Country

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5 reasons why Parcells can't

no Bill Belichick
no Charlie Weis
no Romeo Crennel
no Dan Henning
no Al Groh
 
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