Marinelli defense and the 1 tech

[cowboys1981]

On the 1st big run up the middle, the Safety Woods was out of position. People hate Heath but he probably would have made that play.

The problems are somewhat on everybody but probably more on the LBs than any other group.

The combination of no real 1tech and Jaylon at MLB is too much to overcome. Throw in a rookie Safety and it's not hard to understand the problem.

Agreed. Everything up the middle is an issue. I still don't like RM's philosophy of the one tech and I'm more disturbed as to why our FO continues to give his view point any credibility.

 

[ABQcowboyJR]

Agreed. Everything up the middle is an issue. I still don't like RM's philosophy of the one tech and I'm more disturbed as to why our FO continues to give his view point any credibility.

This has been a problem for years and many members here on the board have been calling the team out on it. The only time i've seen this scheme really flourish is when RoClain was balling at MLB. He was physical enough to take on lineman, shed and make plays at the LOS. Those kind of MLB are really really hard to find. On top of this our LBer corp is generally a small group. They are run to the ball kind of guys, not physical take on blocker kind of guys.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Agreed. Everything up the middle is an issue. I still don't like RM's philosophy of the one tech and I'm more disturbed as to why our FO continues to give his view point any credibility.

The thing is it (RM's defense) worked last year vs. the run. And that was with a 6'2", 300lb #1 DT. They need to sort out the position in the offseason.

 

[ABQcowboyJR]

The thing is it (RM's defense) worked last year vs. the run. And that was with a 6'2", 300lb #1 DT. They need to sort out the position in the offseason.

You are right in the fact that the defense seemed to do okay last year, but it had a ton of help from the offense. That is how the scheme on defense has been build, to play with a lead. Is the FO okay with running a scheme like that? They shouldn't be IMO.

 

[xwalker]

Agreed. Everything up the middle is an issue. I still don't like RM's philosophy of the one tech and I'm more disturbed as to why our FO continues to give his view point any credibility.

I think they will move away from RM's input on player acquisition. Paea was playing well but the Thorton issue was odd and seems related to coaching. They did have 2 season ending injuries at the position which would put any team in a bind.

They did have some 1tech types rated fairly high on their leaked draft board a couple of years ago.

Dontari Poe at 1-year, 8M would have been a great fit. He'll be a free agent againt next year. Frederick and Martin have struggled with him more than most DTs over the years.

Star Lotulelei is a free agent after the season.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

You are right in the fact that the defense seemed to do okay last year, but it had a ton of help from the offense. That is how the scheme on defense has been build, to play with a lead. Is the FO okay with running a scheme like that? They shouldn't be IMO.

Since Marinelli has been here he simply hasn't had a good compliment of players across all 3 defensive units. If it wasn't the linebacking corp falling apart then it was the secondary. If it wasn't the secondary then it was the defensive line.

I'd like to see the guy get enough quality players for all 3 units and then let's judge if his scheme is shoddy or not.

 

[ABQcowboyJR]

Since Marinelli has been here he simply hasn't had a good compliment of players across all 3 defensive units. If it wasn't the linebacking corp falling apart then it was the secondary. If it wasn't the secondary then it was the defensive line.

I'd like to see the guy get enough quality players for all 3 units and then let's judge if his scheme is shoddy or not.

After this off season we might get to see that. This defense seems like it is 3 quality starters away IMO. MLB, 1TECH, FS.

 

[mahoneybill]

I am one of those beating the drum for a true nose, yes Booger and Sapp were the tandem back in the Tampa days. Rod went on record saying that in his system he does not value the nose, any large framed player can clog up the middle. To spend a high draft pick on a 1-tech they would have to be both a good run plugger and also be able to rush inside. That's why we traded out of the 1-tech who ended up in Minnesota, only a plugger (And we ended up with Fredbeard). While that turned out to be a great move - nonmove, I vehemently disagree.
A talented nose next to a playmaking 3-tech should be a must. And would help everyone on the defense.
2 examples of great inside fronts are Philly (yuk) and Rams. Philly has Jerringan and Cox, Rams have Brockers and Donald. And they both wreak havoc.
They have drafted their players high - Cox, Brockers, and Donald are all first rounders, as was Jerrnigan but Philly got him in a trade this year.
This coming draft there 3-4 good nose tackles that could legitimately come in and help Collins up front, Da Ron Payne would fit perfectly !
If Rod will not do it, either he goes or the F.O. has to override him, its obvious to everybody else .....

Cox is a monster, size wise and technique..... Thanks for posting a nice analysis of the need for the tandem, and value of 1 - tech

 

[kiheikiwi]

Since Marinelli has been here he simply hasn't had a good compliment of players across all 3 defensive units. If it wasn't the linebacking corp falling apart then it was the secondary. If it wasn't the secondary then it was the defensive line.

I'd like to see the guy get enough quality players for all 3 units and then let's judge if his scheme is shoddy or not.

I agree with this, I would also like to see what he could do with better players. My bone of contention has always been his aversion to talented 1-tech's. Now, in no way am I advocating for just a big, wide body in the middle to eat up blockers. I think that is the wrong option. See Golden Cock .....
Dontari Poe looked last night like he has dropped the puppy fat and added muscle to his frame, looked and played well. That is the body frame and talent we should be going after !
It's gonna take a high draft pick to get one of those talented guys like a Poe, or Cox, or Brockers etc. Even Sheldon Williams is playing better now that he is away from the Jets.
Guys this year like Payne (pet cat), Lotulele, Wilkins etc. Guys that are stout enough to take on double teams and provide some rush up the middle.
And this is where I don't believe Irving fits inside, at 6'5" 290 # his frame is just wrong for a nose or 3-tech. Like I said earlier, real good when we go to a 3 man line, and rotating in occasionally but too linear and not bulky enough inside. McClain last year played at around 300 # but was a squattier player. Irving should be a rotational strong DE and inside on 3 man fronts.
Collins is a 3-tech, not a nose. Even though he has good size at 310 # he has always played the 3 and its his best position. Put a good player next to him, with all the DE's we seem to have rotating around both sides. Irving, DLaw, Crawford, Taco, Mayowa, maybe another draft pick. But please get stronger, better up front.
We can all see it, why the hell cant they ?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

One of the things a lot of people are discussing is the cowboys lack of a true 1 tech DT.

I remember the Tampa defense under Kiffin and Marinelli had Booger McFarland playing.

Booger wasn’t a star by any means but he was a solid run stuffing 1 tech DT.

So I was wondering what some people’s thoughts are on why the cowboys haven’t put any effort into getting a guy like him on our DL.

Or is my memory of those Tampa defenses fuzzy?

Booger was not a mammoth NT. The defense calls for slants, shifts, and stunts from all DL constantly. If you can find a 340 lbs guy that can handle that then I am sure that he will go for it. Suh and Cox are the only ones in the league I can think of.

An immobile NT would not have solved the wide lanes that were generated from trapping Irving.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The thing is it (RM's defense) worked last year vs. the run. And that was with a 6'2", 300lb #1 DT. They need to sort out the position in the offseason.

What is being ignored here is that there have been multiple injuries at the 1 and a pro scouting miss as well. Paea and Price were pretty good before they went down.

 

[diefree666]

Since Marinelli has been here he simply hasn't had a good compliment of players across all 3 defensive units. If it wasn't the linebacking corp falling apart then it was the secondary. If it wasn't the secondary then it was the defensive line.

I'd like to see the guy get enough quality players for all 3 units and then let's judge if his scheme is shoddy or not.

the best DC's find ways to get it done without all that much talent. Clearly RM is not that good.

 

[diefree666]

This has been a problem for years and many members here on the board have been calling the team out on it. The only time i've seen this scheme really flourish is when RoClain was balling at MLB. He was physical enough to take on lineman, shed and make plays at the LOS. Those kind of MLB are really really hard to find. On top of this our LBer corp is generally a small group. They are run to the ball kind of guys, not physical take on blocker kind of guys.

real shame about RO Mclain; that guy would have made all the difference if he could have kept it clean.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

the best DC's find ways to get it done without all that much talent. Clearly RM is not that good.

I respectfully disagree with that.

Talent has a lot to do with it.

There's a reason why the Astros won the World Series this year and the Rangers didn't crack .500 and a lot of it has to do with the talent on the field... I don't care what sport it is.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

What is being ignored here is that there have been multiple injuries at the 1 and a pro scouting miss as well. Paea and Price were pretty good before they went down.

Agreed.

The #1 DT spot has been a cluster this season... That's the long & short of it.

 

[Dalmations202]

I am not sure I understand what Marinelli is teaching or wanting out of the 1T.

What I was taught for a 1T in a base 4-3 D. Assuming 1 or 2 down.
1T lines up in over the outside of center/gap guard center. (various strong and weak side lineup, etc)
On snap he drives forward.
If guard or center pull, he is to shed hands of other and stays in the pulling OL back pocket looking for RB who is following.
If guard and center double team, then he has to hold his ground stopping up the hole and allowing the LBs to plug/shoot gaps.
If guard and center step back to pass protect, he needs to drive the gap, and demand a double team on the way to the QB while collapsing the pocket.
If guard drives by you and center slides to you -- drive center back, because they are running an inside trap or backside sweep.

So the 1T needs to be as quick or quicker than the inside OL and big/strong enough to at minimum hold ground when double teamed.
You can't give up 30-50 lbs to each of the OL and expect to be able to do this. You need a quick, big, and strong guy.

Maybe I am missing something, but I thought this was pretty basic for a standard D before adding in all the complications. Is Marinelli wanting a 300lb guy who is quicker, but can be handled by a single 350lb guard or center, and can be driven off the line by a double team on the way for the guard or center to block the LB?

 

[unionjack8]

Since Marinelli has been here he simply hasn't had a good compliment of players across all 3 defensive units. If it wasn't the linebacking corp falling apart then it was the secondary. If it wasn't the secondary then it was the defensive line.

I'd like to see the guy get enough quality players for all 3 units and then let's judge if his scheme is shoddy or not.

So he needs pro bowlers everywhere?
It's his scheme that constantly fails to put players in position. It simply cannot cope with today's high octane offenses.
Oh and he is as much to blame for poor half time adjustments. He has been bent over too often.....

 

[Sydla]

Since Marinelli has been here he simply hasn't had a good compliment of players across all 3 defensive units. If it wasn't the linebacking corp falling apart then it was the secondary. If it wasn't the secondary then it was the defensive line.

I'd like to see the guy get enough quality players for all 3 units and then let's judge if his scheme is shoddy or not.

How long will that take?

I am tired of having coaches that need talent at all positions in order to judge whether or not they are any good anymore. How about we find some coaches that do the unthinkable to some around here - actually make our players better?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

How long will that take?

I am tired of having coaches that need talent at all positions in order to judge whether or not they are any good anymore. How about we find some coaches that do the unthinkable to some around here - actually make our players better?

I get that.

I'm not thrilled with 5-5.

It's not a good look.

But I understand that the NFL is closer to a zero-sum game than most activities in life.

You've got 31 other competitors and a limited talent pool.

You're only allowed so many roster spots and you're limited in what you can spend.

The result is no matter how frustrated we get as fans there are no snap-your-fingers answers.

To win requires a certain amount of skill and luck, both from a choosing the players perspective and from a player's perspective.

Injuries, suspensions, bad FA signings and sup-par performances have just about doomed this season.

On the positive, I'm pretty happy with 3 out of the 4 spots on the DL.

I think Smith will eventually be a decent LB.

And I think there are some young-uns in the secondary that are keepers.

The defense needs a true #1 DT, at least two linebackers and maybe another safety. I'm hoping that this offseason finishes the job for the defense.

 

[Idgit]

I hate our defense. Not the scheme, but the fact that it's sucked for years. But the issue right now is that we lack impact players there. All this talk about schemes is mostly-********. Players win in this league. Don't believe it? Tell me again how much better the scheme got in PHI since last season. They added players, and a lot of those guys really panned out.

Or look at our own defense, with and without Sean Lee. It's night and day with just one special player out there. Now think what it would look like with another 2-3 impact defenders. *That's* what the difference is.

The same thing goes for offense, by the way. Take away two allpros, and things are going to look different.

It's not magic. And I know fans are fond of saying there's something unique about the Cowboys that they can't overcome their injuries, but the fact of the matter is all all comes down to depth. What's your drop-off between Romo and Weeden? Right. Smith and Chaz Green? Right. Sean Lee and Jaylon Smith?...you get the point. Yes, the Eagles are deeper, no, the players they lost weren't the same caliber as Smith and Elliott and Lee, but the guys they had behind them were better.

We blew it putting the roster together this year. There were affordable LB options available, and we overestimated what Jaylon could give us. We had some bad luck at 1-tech, and blew the Thornton evaluation. And we've spent resources on offense (not to mention blowing the Gregory and Jaylon picks) that could have gone to legitimate impact defenders. This is why the defense isn't good enough. It's not the we don't have guys that fit the scheme. The guys we've got right now just aren't good enough.