Marinelli's conservative bend don't break defense is gone

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's really kinda senseless to compare the Tampa2 to what we ran here. I mean, it a true Tampa2, the MLB plays the game much, much different then we ever have here in Dallas. Your Safeties are the stars of the Secondary and you absolutely need to have a guy there who can do it all. When is the last time we had a Safety who fit that discription? You need the ability to pressure from your 4 down lineman and again, we haven't seen that here i a long time. Any scheme takes the right personnel.

 

[quickccc]

that was probably his best stint as DC.

how about that job he did for Atlanta?

how about taking in Nolan's whole body of work, and not just ATL.. and also consider the quality personnel guys he had with Ravens... vs ATL personnel guys.

 

[DuncanIso]

how about taking in Nolan's whole body of work, and not just ATL.. and also consider the quality personnel guys he had with Ravens... vs ATL personnel guys.

yeah... his coaching record stinks.

not gonna bother to post the link from pro football ref.

you can look it up if you don’t believe.

 

[DuncanIso]

It's really kinda senseless to compare the Tampa2 to what we ran here. I mean, it a true Tampa2, the MLB plays the game much, much different then we ever have here in Dallas. Your Safeties are the stars of the Secondary and you absolutely need to have a guy there who can do it all. When is the last time we had a Safety who fit that discription? You need the ability to pressure from your 4 down lineman and again, we haven't seen that here i a long time. Any scheme takes the right personnel.

I think most of the problems were with the DL.

too much 1 gap. No DE contain on backside runs. Screens were a nightmare.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think most of the problems were with the DL.

too much 1 gap. No DE contain on backside runs. Screens were a nightmare.

Well, it's the same scheme we've run since Marinelli got here and yet, we didn't get gashed the same way until Richardson took over the LBs and DBs. Now, I'm not saying it's the fault of Richards necessarily but that probably didn't help. To run that scheme up front, you have to have certain things out of your LBs and your DBs. Clearly, we didn't have that. As I said earlier, I never liked the Marinelli scheme but it has worked elsewhere when the proper personnel were present. Bottom line, if you are going to run games up front with your DL, then you better have LBs who can stack and shed. You can't have a bunch of guys who run around blocks in an attempt to make tackles. You have to meet the block and plug the hole. We have the wrong personnel doing the wrong things against the run. No gap integrity, nobody meeting the pulling Guards head on to close the whole. Everybody running all over the field trying to get up field and it creates gaps that are easy to exploit. I don't love the scheme but it wasn't the scheme. It was our inability to have everybody on the Defensive Unit play a team concept and execute defensively. You can't have that or everybody gets fired.

 

[Keithfansince5]

Like I just me mentioned. The playoff game against the packers. Marinelli finally came after rogers and we mounted a come back all we had to do was hold up for a few plays and it was going into OT and I really believe we would have won that game. We were all over rogers and he was frustrated. We played that prevent crap and rogers makes the play on the sideline pass because Jones is staring at rogers instead of covering and they make the play and kick the FG and send us home. Just pressure rogers and don’t change what’s working.

The Kansas City Chiefs game. That was Tyreek Hill showing how poorly the Cowboys tackle....

 

[G2]

It's really kinda senseless to compare the Tampa2 to what we ran here. I mean, it a true Tampa2, the MLB plays the game much, much different then we ever have here in Dallas. Your Safeties are the stars of the Secondary and you absolutely need to have a guy there who can do it all. When is the last time we had a Safety who fit that discription? You need the ability to pressure from your 4 down lineman and again, we haven't seen that here i a long time. Any scheme takes the right personnel.

It's actually based around the middle linebacker which drops back into coverage if he reads a pass. And it's based in general around smaller, but faster players. The weakness is if you don't have adequate DT's that get beat up the middle on runs. The safeties aren't required to do it all.

 

[quickccc]

yeah... his coaching record stinks.

not gonna bother to post the link from pro football ref.

you can look it up if you don’t believe.

are you talking about his " head coaching" record ?
because this is in reference to his DC role. Which is what his role will be here.
But it is up to McClay and Stephen to get him the ammunition he needs to be the best he can be.

 

[CouchCoach]

It is unknown how this D will be employed because every DC is a slave to the talent. Few want to be BDBD but the lack of talent necessitates that and that's the reason we never saw the 3/4 Parcells wanted to play, that look like the one in NY?

We assume these coaches do what they want to do. Buddy Ryan, Marvin Lewis or Monte Kiffin, any of those 3 ever recreate what made them well known? That GB DC sure got a lot better this season with the addition of Amos and the Smith's.

Quinn is really a one trick pony and doesn't play the run well but think how poor the pass rush would have been without him. We may get to see it without the two best CB's this season. The D is an unfinished product and they may have to get lucky just to get back to where it was this past season.

A DC is like a chef, they all want to make the best Chauteubriand. Problem is if you don't have the right cut of meat to start with, good luck with that.

 

[johneric8]

No matter if it's an aggressive or conservative scheme, it all boils down to the talent, football instincts and IQ of the players to make the scheme successfully work. The biggest issue, isn't so much the scheme, but rather the players within it. Outside of maybe Lawrence, the defense just doesn't have many legitimate defensive stars/playmakers.

Bill Billichek says hello bro.. It doesn't always come down to talent like you said man.. I've seen teams with less talent in PEE WEE football win because of coaching. Also, look what BB does with the patriot defense and he rarely has a very talented defense from top to bottom.. Scheme and coaching MATTER.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's actually based around the middle linebacker which drops back into coverage if he reads a pass. And it's based in general around smaller, but faster players. The weakness is if you don't have adequate DT's that get beat up the middle on runs. The safeties aren't required to do it all.

If we played in an actual Tampa 2, that would be true but we don't. We are actually a Cover2 team, which is different. In a true Tampa 2, your CBs are responsible for a short to intermediate zone. They don't carry the WR down the field. That's the Job of the Safety so that's why you need to have a very capable Safety in that scheme. The Safety must also be able to come up and contribute in the run game because in a traditional Tampa 2, it's usually the WLB that is the money guy. He better be on point out of the gate or you are in trouble. That guy is the star of that scheme. Because your MLB is often playing in space in a true Tampa 2, your Safety better be able to come up and support in the run game because your MLB may be schemed away from a support role against the run. It means that the roles somewhat reverse in that situation and your Safety becomes your MLB and your MLB becomes your Safety in certain situations.

 

[G2]

It is unknown how this D will be employed because every DC is a slave to the talent. Few want to be BDBD but the lack of talent necessitates that and that's the reason we never saw the 3/4 Parcells wanted to play, that look like the one in NY?

We assume these coaches do what they want to do. Buddy Ryan, Marvin Lewis or Monte Kiffin, any of those 3 ever recreate what made them well known? That GB DC sure got a lot better this season with the addition of Amos and the Smith's.

Quinn is really a one trick pony and doesn't play the run well but think how poor the pass rush would have been without him. We may get to see it without the two best CB's this season. The D is an unfinished product and they may have to get lucky just to get back to where it was this past season.

A DC is like a chef, they all want to make the best Chauteubriand. Problem is if you don't have the right cut of meat to start with, good luck with that.

The thing is the cover 2/Tampa 2 - whatever you want to call it has been effective since the Steelers in the 70's. I think a coach has a shelf life.

 

[CouchCoach]

Bill Billichek says hello bro.. It doesn't always come down to talent like you said man.. I've seen teams with less talent in PEE WEE football win because of coaching. Also, look what BB does with the patriot defense and he rarely has a very talented defense from top to bottom.. Scheme and coaching MATTER.

They do but he also picks his own talent to fit his needs and he's an excellent judge of D talent. Not fair to compare the best D mind in the game, and maybe ever, to other D coaches.

Even Landry needed the type guys to play his Flex like it was designed to be executed. Belichick needs a certain type of D player that can modify his game to meet his weekly demands.

We get down on D coaches for being too conservative but then we get a DC like Rob Ryan who decided he was going to play his D regardless of the talent and it was a disaster.

Marvin Lewis built his rep on that 00 Ravens D, yet he was never able to duplicate that. Same goes with Buddy Ryan and Kiffin and even Wannstedt.

There is no question, Belichick could make any D better but he's one guy and there's not another like him. There's a reason Nolan was available and not the DC in NO. His track record isn't great, I just hope he can make this D good enough to be a true contender along with it's O. This STC has got some boogie to him so I am looking forward to seeing that as well.

 

[G2]

If we played in an actual Tampa 2, that would be true but we don't. We are actually a Cover2 team, which is different. In a true Tampa 2, your CBs are responsible for a short to intermediate zone. They don't carry the WR down the field. That's the Job of the Safety so that's why you need to have a very capable Safety in that scheme. The Safety must also be able to come up and contribute in the run game because in a traditional Tampa 2, it's usually the WLB that is the money guy. He better be on point out of the gate or you are in trouble. That guy is the star of that scheme. Because your MLB is often playing in space in a true Tampa 2, your Safety better be able to come up and support in the run game because your MLB may be schemed away from a support role against the run. It means that the roles somewhat reverse in that situation and your Safety becomes your MLB and your MLB becomes your Safety in certain situations.

I agree about the safeties. We haven't addressed the position correctly IMO. Same with DT.

 

[CouchCoach]

The thing is the cover 2/Tampa 2 - whatever you want to call it has been effective since the Steelers in the 70's. I think a coach has a shelf life.

So do players. Hell of a lot easier to run that with Brooks, Barber, Lynch, Rice and Sapp. Kiffin had those 5 and the Cowboys do not have 1 as good as any of those players.

Scheme is the recipe and the talent the ingredients. Until the Cowboys get better on the latter, I don;t care what dish gets ordered. Parcells wanted to run the 3/4 but missed one little detail, the players to execute it. When Landry introduced his Flex, he struggled initially with getting players to understand it but he began to pick specific players for it and even he missed, both Harris and Watters were picked to play CB and became known as "burnt" and "toast" but a great D mind finds a better place for great players.

I don't know why we got down on Marinelli, the guy was a DLC, not a DC. I don't know why he was given any play as a talent picker. Now, Hill may prove me wrong but he's was picked solely on Marinelli's thumbs up. I understand he wanted Charleton as well.

One problem is that too many think McClay is the end all. The guy has been good with OL....in the 1st round. The jury is still out on OL picked after that. OL is the safest pick in the 1st round of the draft.

Byron Jones was picked because he was that year's Combine Freak Athlete and they needed a CB and looks like they'll be needing at least one more out of this draft.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

They do but he also picks his own talent to fit his needs and he's an excellent judge of D talent. Not fair to compare the best D mind in the game, and maybe ever, to other D coaches.

Even Landry needed the type guys to play his Flex like it was designed to be executed. Belichick needs a certain type of D player that can modify his game to meet his weekly demands.

We get down on D coaches for being too conservative but then we get a DC like Rob Ryan who decided he was going to play his D regardless of the talent and it was a disaster.

Marvin Lewis built his rep on that 00 Ravens D, yet he was never able to duplicate that. Same goes with Buddy Ryan and Kiffin and even Wannstedt.

There is no question, Belichick could make any D better but he's one guy and there's not another like him. There's a reason Nolan was available and not the DC in NO. His track record isn't great, I just hope he can make this D good enough to be a true contender along with it's O. This STC has got some boogie to him so I am looking forward to seeing that as well.

This is true. I think that sometimes people get confused with the term "talent", in terms of how it applies to scheme. You need a certain capability out of certain position to make certain schemes work. They don't all have to be LT or Reggie White type talents but they do have to be able to provide what is necessary to play the position in terms of what the scheme demands.

 

[G2]

So do players. Hell of a lot easier to run that with Brooks, Barber, Lynch, Rice and Sapp. Kiffin had those 5 and the Cowboys do not have 1 as good as any of those players.

Scheme is the recipe and the talent the ingredients. Until the Cowboys get better on the latter, I don;t care what dish gets ordered. Parcells wanted to run the 3/4 but missed one little detail, the players to execute it. When Landry introduced his Flex, he struggled initially with getting players to understand it but he began to pick specific players for it and even he missed, both Harris and Watters were picked to play CB and became known as "burnt" and "toast" but a great D mind finds a better place for great players.

I don't know why we got down on Marinelli, the guy was a DLC, not a DC. I don't know why he was given any play as a talent picker. Now, Hill may prove me wrong but he's was picked solely on Marinelli's thumbs up. I understand he wanted Charleton as well.

One problem is that too many think McClay is the end all. The guy has been good with OL....in the 1st round. The jury is still out on OL picked after that. OL is the safest pick in the 1st round of the draft.

Byron Jones was picked because he was that year's Combine Freak Athlete and they needed a CB and looks like they'll be needing at least one more out of this draft.

I agree. I do think under the past system it was too simple by design. Offenses knew on passing downs what we were going to run. We have some really good players not being utilized.

 

[CouchCoach]

I agree about the safeties. We haven't addressed the position correctly IMO. Same with DT.

It's the hourglass, DTs. MLB and S's. Take away the middle of the field, the shortest distance between two points.

Look back at the great Cowboys D's, who were the DT's? Landry's first official pick was at DE but the plan was always to move him inside to DT where he was one of the best to ever play. He moved an All American LB to DT, where he made the HOF. Johnson took a DT with his 1st pick. Parcells went after a cherry in La'Roi Glover when the Cowboys were players in FA.

Since then, what? Has that ever been a focus with this brain trust? No, DT's ain't sexy enough unless their named Donald and everyone knows it. The Cowboys have not been a force, and certainly not one that can be sustained, and not just because of the players they drafted but the positions. That's because there's never been a blueprint.

 

[G2]

It's the hourglass, DTs. MLB and S's. Take away the middle of the field, the shortest distance between two points.

Look back at the great Cowboys D's, who were the DT's? Landry's first official pick was at DE but the plan was always to move him inside to DT where he was one of the best to ever play. He moved an All American LB to DT, where he made the HOF. Johnson took a DT with his 1st pick. Parcells went after a cherry in La'Roi Glover when the Cowboys were players in FA.

Since then, what? Has that ever been a focus with this brain trust? No, DT's ain't sexy enough unless their named Donald and everyone knows it. The Cowboys have not been a force, and certainly not one that can be sustained, and not just because of the players they drafted but the positions. That's because there's never been a blueprint.

I was just thinking. We haven't drafted a relevant and early round DT since Russell Maryland. And he wasn't All World either.

Wasn't Jerry a freaking lineman? You'd think he'd appreciate a good DT.

 

[CouchCoach]

This is true. I think that sometimes people get confused with the term "talent", in terms of how it applies to scheme. You need a certain capability out of certain position to make certain schemes work. They don't all have to be LT or Reggie White type talents but they do have to be able to provide what is necessary to play the position in terms of what the scheme demands.

Nothing could be truer about the Flex. That was actually the first "just do your job" defense. It was a struggle for some players because Landry tried to coach instinct and what they were seeing out and staying where he wanted them. In his system, the MLB would lead the team in tackles every season by design. We've had some in the past 20 years that CB's led the team in tackles. If one of your DB's is leading the D in tackles, you don't have a D.