Mel's Day 1 Winners and Question Marks

beware_d-ware

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LVE was going to the Titans at the absolute latest. Given that they traded up for Evans, I'll guarantee you they would have traded up to #22 for him as well. Picking that same guy at #19 is not a reach.
 

Risen Star

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A 56% college passer taken in the Top 10 is the biggest risk by far. Because you are banking on the fact that you can remake his footwork, mechanics, anticipation, etc. and make him a 64% pro passer.

Allen is the largest risk in the entire first round.

Allen has physical concerns. Mayfield has physical and mental concerns. He also came with a bigger price tag. There are simply more ways for him to fail and at a higher price.

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It's not a fair fight.
 

Sydla

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Allen has physical concerns. Mayfield has physical and mental concerns. He also came with a bigger price tag. There are simply more ways for him to fail and at a higher price.

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It's not a fair fight.

Actually Buffalo paid the bigger price tag. Cleveland had the #1 pick simply because they sucked. Buffalo traded the 12th, 53rd and 56th picks to grab Allen.

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Risen Star

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Actually Buffalo paid the bigger price tag. Cleveland had the #1 pick simply because they sucked. Buffalo traded the 12th, 53rd and 56th picks to grab Allen.

Me 1
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You -1

Actually, keeping in mind that you don't know anything, try trading the 12th, 53rd and 56th picks for the 1st overall pick in the draft sometime and let me know how that works out.

I already know. Mel knows. But you don't, because again you don't know anything.

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Outlaw Heroes

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BTW, I have to agree with the great Mel Kiper Jr. Definite reach.

You've been pimping Evans for a while. It colors your evaluation of LVE is my guess.

Allen has physical concerns. Mayfield has physical and mental concerns. He also came with a bigger price tag. There are simply more ways for him to fail and at a higher price.

Mel 1
You 0

It's not a fair fight.

You watch ESPN's coverage exclusively so you missed Aikman's commentary for NFLN on Allen. He pointed out that, in his experience, QBs don't overcome a lack of accuracy in college to become accurate and successful NFL QBs. He might as well have said that Allen has "bust" written all over him.

If Sydla's outmatched against Mel, he's got a pretty good big brother in Troy to call upon for help.
 

Risen Star

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You've been pimping Evans for a while. It colors your evaluation of LVE is my guess.



You watch ESPN's coverage exclusively so you missed Aikman's commentary for NFLN on Allen. He pointed out that, in his experience, QBs don't overcome a lack of accuracy in college to become accurate and successful NFL QBs. He might as well have said that Allen has "bust" written all over him.

If Sydla's outmatched against Mel, he's got a pretty good big brother in Troy to call upon for help.

Don't turn this into me being a believer in Josh Allen because I am not. The issue is who is the biggest risk? That's Mayfield by a country mile. You took a 6 foot diva QB who can go completely off the reservation once he's paid with the first overall pick. That's the biggest risk. All the players were available. You took him. You went all in on him.
 

Outlaw Heroes

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Don't turn this into me being a believer in Josh Allen because I am not. The issue is who is the biggest risk? That's Mayfield by a country mile. You took a 6 foot diva QB who can go completely off the reservation once he's paid with the first overall pick. That's the biggest risk. All the players were available. You took him. You went all in on him.

He's definitely risky. But you have to separate out that he was the first pick in assessing how risky he is. Whomever the Browns had taken (Mayfield or Allen or anyone else), that player would represent so much draft capital that a bust would be costly. There's a certain amount of risk involved just in picking #1 that should be segregated from the risk inherent in the player himself.

If Nelson had been the pick he would have added very little risk to the risk of picking #1, since he is so unlikely to bust (though the cost of him busting -- i.e. the risk of picking #1 -- is the same).

Each of Mayfield and Allen have things to overcome. There are some off-field concerns with Mayfield, to go with his limitations in height. But we've seen other QBs (Brees, Wilson) overcome limitations in height and history offers several examples of QBs with 'off-field concerns' similar to Mayfield's that have succeeded (Namath, Stabler and, more recently, Cam). Aikman's point was that we haven't really seen QBs overcome Allen's limitation -- a lack of accuracy -- which makes him more likely to bust and therefore the riskier pick. I actually think when you factor in Mayfield's obvious competitiveness he's that much less likely to bust than Allen.
 

beware_d-ware

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A 56% college passer taken in the Top 10 is the biggest risk by far. Because you are banking on the fact that you can remake his footwork, mechanics, anticipation, etc. and make him a 64% pro passer.

Allen is the largest risk in the entire first round.

Allen has even more to re-work than that. He doesn't even make pre-snap reads, and wait to see receivers break open before he throws it. He's going to have to rebuild his game from the shoulders up as well as his passing mechanics.

To be honest, all he's got is an arm.
 

Risen Star

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He's definitely risky. But you have to separate out that he was the first pick in assessing how risky he is. Whomever the Browns had taken (Mayfield or Allen or anyone else), that player would represent so much draft capital that a bust would be costly. There's a certain amount of risk involved just in picking #1 that should be segregated from the risk inherent in the player himself.

If Nelson had been the pick he would have added very little risk to the risk of picking #1, since he is so unlikely to bust (though the cost of him busting -- i.e. the risk of picking #1 -- is the same).

Each of Mayfield and Allen have things to overcome. There are some off-field concerns with Mayfield, to go with his limitations in height. But we've seen other QBs (Brees, Wilson) overcome limitations in height and history offers several examples of QBs with 'off-field concerns' similar to Mayfield's that have succeeded (Namath, Stabler and, more recently, Cam). Aikman's point was that we haven't really seen QBs overcome Allen's limitation -- a lack of accuracy -- which makes him more likely to bust and therefore the riskier pick. I actually think when you factor in Mayfield's obvious competitiveness he's that much less likely to bust than Allen.

Why do I have to separate Mayfield being the first overall pick? To be wrong? If you spend 10k or 20k at the casino which is the bigger risk?

Sure you have smaller QBs that have succeeded. A few. Most don't. But you also have QBs with accuracy questions succeed in the NFL. Namely Brett Favre and Matt Stafford. So it can happen but I wouldn't bet on either.

The difference is, besides the 1st overall pick investment, Mayfield is a character risk. A headcase. This guy could be on TMZ daily. He's a hard guy to trust with the keys to your franchise.

There's just no question who the bigger risk is.
 

Outlaw Heroes

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Why do I have to separate Mayfield being the first overall pick? To be wrong? If you spend 10k or 20k at the casino which is the bigger risk?

If you're comparing how risky the players in this draft are, the only way to do so on a level playing field is to back out the risk inherent in their respective draft slots. In effect, the question has to be: "who would be the bigger risk, assuming that he were picked #1 overall"? Or, alternatively: "let's ignore draft slot: which player is the bigger risk?"
 

MonsterD

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LVE was going to the Titans at the absolute latest. Given that they traded up for Evans, I'll guarantee you they would have traded up to #22 for him as well. Picking that same guy at #19 is not a reach.
Yeah in general we can pickup on clues that other teams had LVE similarly ranked as the Cowboys did, the draftniks had him lower ranked some only as late first.
 

Floatyworm

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Kiper is a hack, has always been a hack, and the fact that Risen loves him illustrates his value as a draft expert.

Mel used to be good....But he now has agents in his back pocket...and he's got an agenda to push his buddies players up the board. He's a sellout as far as I'm concerned. :rolleyes:
 

sdfidaho

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Yeah, Fredbeard was a reach too, and that one worked out OK I think...

I think Kiper had Fred as a 4th rounder.
I guit listening to his nonsense years ago.
I literally trust my own judgement on these players more than I do Kiper’s and I’m clueless.
 

Sydla

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I think Kiper had Fred as a 4th rounder.
I guit listening to his nonsense years ago.
I literally trust my own judgement on these players more than I do Kiper’s and I’m clueless.

Kiper had Frederick as his best C. But I think he had a 2nd round grade on him.
 

Risen Star

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Scouts Inc. on the Vander Sloot pick....

Jaylon Smith made a remarkable return from a knee injury/nerve damage last season, but Sean Lee will be 32 in July and has missed at least five games in four of the past six years. Vander Esch is a reach at No. 19, especially with Alabama's Rashaan Evans still on the board. However, Vander Esch's range as a run defender and in coverage makes him a good fit for defensive coordinator Rod Marinelli's scheme.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft/rounds
 

Risen Star

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If you're comparing how risky the players in this draft are, the only way to do so on a level playing field is to back out the risk inherent in their respective draft slots. In effect, the question has to be: "who would be the bigger risk, assuming that he were picked #1 overall"? Or, alternatively: "let's ignore draft slot: which player is the bigger risk?"

Baker Mayfield. You're giving the keys to your franchise to a player who has to overcome physical and mental issues. He's got more ways to fail than any other QB taken in the first round.

That doesn't mean he's my least favorite of the 5. He's just the most risky. Most boom or bust.

Then when you factor in where he was picked, which you should, it becomes a no brainer.
 

sdfidaho

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Kiper had Frederick as his best C. But I think he had a 2nd round grade on him.

Thanks
Must have been a different talking head.
I still don’t trust Kiper’s judgement.
I much more trust Mayock’s and he had LVE at #20 if I remember that correctly. Not a reach.
 

sdfidaho

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Mayock’s last Top 100 List published April 24:

# 20) Leighton Vander Esch, LB, Boise State

Brugler had LVE at #26 (Evans at #25, but with poor cover skills)

#19 is not a reach
 
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