Merriman vs Ware, the debate continues after ONE season

[thor_01]

what i am the most sure of at this point is that Ware is a Dallas Cowboy and before it is all over with Merriman is gonna wish he was lol...................

 

[PoetTree]

Jerry, Bill AND Jeff Ireland all publicly said when we drafted Ware over Merriman that because Demarcus was so raw, would be learning a new position and had come from a small school... Merriman would likely appear to be the better player in year-one. They all then went on to say they drafted Ware because they thought he had the greater potential. Period.

So, when comparing rookie seasons, it would be good for all Cowboys fans to remember that our own coaching staff predicted that Merriman would look better last year, but that Ware's ceiling is higher & that we would see that in the seasons to follow.

Yeah, Merriman looked better for most of last year. So what? We were told upfront that he would. It's now, and the days to follow, that we should see Ware start to blossom into that "higher-than-Merriman's" potential we drafted him for.


It's this season that the debate should truly be joined...
















Peace and Love

- PoetTree -

 

[THUMPER]

The biggest difference is not between the players but between the DCs. If Merriman would have been with the Cowboys he would have been used, and limited, just like Ware was.

Wade Philips is one of the best DCs in the league while Zimmer has yet to figure out how to design an effective blitz no matter who he has.

Zimmer is still using Campo's bend-but-don't-break scheme (even with the switch to the 3-4) which looks nice in terms of total yards but is not designed to create big plays. It is designed to limit what the opponent can do rather than dictate what they can do.

GROZ lives!

 

[The Realist]

I seem to recall all the predraft talk around here centered on the fact Merriman was represented by the Posoins and that is why a lot of posters knew we would pass on him.

There was no such talk anywhere except maybe NFL War Rooms far as we know.

Here's the earliest Merriman/Poston talk some time after the draft.

http://dallascowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26100&highlight=merriman+postons

 

[dmq]

I'm glad this topic has been brought up. Funny how it slid under the radar for so long.

 

[superpunk]

I wonder how many pressures each player had. I also wonder how many times Ware chased the QB into a waiting defender on the other side. How many of Ellis' sacks came from him just waiting there as Ware brought the house from the other side. I seem to remember that pretty often last year.

The reason I bring up pressure, is that Ware's second best game of the year, IMO, was the Arizona game. I know for sure he forced the bad pass that Henry picked off for a TD. But, he registered no sacks, even though he was terroroizing McCown all day.

I have no intention of comparing the two, save to compare Ware with the rest of the league. And apparently, from a measurable standpoint, he stands there with the best in the league.

After one year.

Playing a brand new position.

Nice.

 

[ZeroClub]

Impossible to be certain which of the two will end up being better.

So far, though, it is looks like the Cowboys wouldn't have gone wrong with either one.

 

[tunahelper]

THIS IS A THREAD FOR YOUR ENTERTAINMENT AND COMMENT

This is a debate being argued on another forum:

Comparing them after this last season is really tough. If I could just watch tapes of both players, and decide which one to take, it would be Merriman, easily. But you have to look at how both players were used on both defenses. San Diego used Merriman perfectly, blitzing him from the left, right, middle, and still used him in coverage. Even in games when his stats weren't that great, you felt his presence. Ware, on the other hand, comparatively speaking, was quite one dimensional. It was either Ware blitzing from his left side, or Ware dropping back into coverage. At times, he shined, but a lot of games his name wasn't mentioned.

But who's to say that if we drafted Merriman that he wouldn't be used the exact same way we used Ware? More than likely that would have been the case. The same thing goes with San Diego and Ware. I think San Diego used Merriman better than Dallas used Ware.
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I saw all 16 Cowboys games, and I think I saw around 10-12 Chargers games (not exactly sure why, but somehow I ended up watching them almost every week). I think I got a pretty good read on both players.

By mid-season, Shawne Merriman was clearly the better player. I did not like him pre-draft, but man, did he prove me wrong quickly. He was such a refined pass rusher at such an early point, he really looked like a seasoned veteren. He used his hands great. He bull rushed awesome. He was just amazing. Really, absolutely, playing like an all pro. In the numerous threads we had on them, I was constantly talking about how amazing he was and how we made a mistake drafting Ware over him (even though I liked the Ware pick at the time it was made). Merriman was also awesome against the run, very instinctual, and very smart. His game (except for coverage) really lacks holes, and that was obvious early on.

By mid-season, it was clear Ware was not nearly as refined a pass-rusher. He has probably the quickest first step of any OLB in the league, but when he didn't mix up his pass rush moves, OTs easily washed down Ware past the quarterback. Even though it was obviously magnified due to the lack of a dominant NT like Jamal Williams (Who Merriman had in San Diego), He was clearly becoming far too predictable for opposing offensive linemen.

Oh, right, I forgot, he'd mix it up and throw in that horribly innefective spin move. Not only did that spin move not work, it affected his ability to stop the run (which he was pretty even in terms of ability with Merriman).

We were told by Jerry and Bill in press conferences following the draft that Ware was simply the more refined pass rusher. This was not the truth whatsoever.

It was obvioius Ware had immense potential (his explosive first step is out of this world), but even more obvious he needed some serioius coaching.

But then his Carolina and St. Louis games were better than any game I saw Merriman have. He began to look like the future All-Pro, Lawrence Taylor-type player we were hoping for. He was really dominant. He hit people in the mouth. He mixed up his pass rush moves, so when he would speed rush and turn the corner, the OT wouldn't be ready for it.

So I don't know who's better. Both are awesome. 90% of the year, I would have taken Merriman, but there was no one better than Ware in those two games. I think I need another year to decide. I have a feeling, after that year though, that I would be satisfied with either one.
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They're both amazing talents, but I'd have to go with Shawne Merriman. He has that killer instinct that you just can't teach. When you're watching him, you can see that this man doesn't just get to the quarterback, he wills himself to the quarterback.
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Well lets see:

Merriman:
Pros: Execptional pass rusher. Unbeleivably talented. A superior athlete.
Cons: A Jerk/Crybaby. Held out for a larger contract. Liable in coverage (even as an LB)

Ware:
Pros: Quickest first step in the nfl (@Lb), Very gifted athlete. Great attitude. Does what ever it takes to win. Leader. Willing to change and learn.
Cons: Not as athletic, does not have the expereince, and not as proven as merriman.

The first 2-3 years of there career i would say Merriman. For the next 3-7 years i would say Ware.

Let's remember Merriman had Foley on the weakside commanding double teams constantly. Ware was learning the LB position from a stand up DE at Troy St. I think a good judge should come this year, especially if Carp can add some pressure.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Merriman is better than Ware. I believe a lot of the talk here is homerism. If Merriman ends up not as good as Ware it will be his own undoing. (i.e. head-case) Merriman like Ray Lewis, LT, Dick Butkus, Junior Seau, Mike Singletary and Erik Williams (pre car wreck) has a raging fire in him when he steps on the field on top of his intelligiences, quickness, speed, and strength.

Now, don't get me wrong. Ware is a great player and will be a great player in the league. Will he be another LT? Well, hah those are gigantic shoes to fill. I think he will be our sack machine for several years to come. His short comings glare. His run defense is questionable although he was a rookie and very green. I'm sure he will get stronger and learn the tools to better handle the run. Will he ever be a great run stopper? As of today I don't see it. If he becomes an adequate run stopper and Roy Williams has FS help he doesn't have to be great at run defense.

I beleive Merriman is closer to LT than Ware. I see Ware closer to Derrick Thomas. (which is saying a lot!)

 

[dfense]

It's true about how they were used. I was really disapointed in Zimmer's lack of originality in how he used Ware. Constantly putting him one on one against the OT. If they moved him around just a little, he would have had a few more sacks. They moved him against the Rams in the final game but that's about it.

Having said that, you've really got to give both guys another year to see what they really are all about.

 

[YosemiteSam]

what i am the most sure of at this point is that Ware is a Dallas Cowboy and before it is all over with Merriman is gonna wish he was lol...................

Before it's all over with? Hell, I think all non-Cowboys wish they were Cowboys. Why would you want to be anything else?

 

[Doomsday101]

I think both are good promising young players. Dallas made their choice going with Ware and I have no problem with that.

 

[Scotman]

Well thought out and terrific opening post.

I like Ware for several reasons.

• First, I'm a complete homer and Ware is a Cowboy. I'm not even going to bother justifying my stance on this.
• I saw a kid out there last year chasing his tail. He was still good enough for this to even be a debate. I think he will be awesome as he figures out which is the right shoe and which is the left.
• Despite all the learning curves he went through last year, he prevailed and had a good season. He never gave up. Not only that, I thought he turned the corner towards the end of the season.
• He is a physically gifted player, even for the pros.

It doesn't mean that I don't like Merriman. I didn't even watch him play much. He had a great season and there's nothing to indicate it won't continue for a long time. I hope Merriman winds up in the HOF. What do I care? I also hope his induction speech mentions how honored he is to be going in with his long-time rival, Ware.

 

[AsthmaField]

I said it last year before the draft and I'll say it again... I wish we could've found a way to trade up with that number 20 pick up to 12 to take Merriman right after we took Ware. That isn't a huge jump and it probably would've been doable.

Have Ware at WOLB and Merriman at SOLB. Ah well.... Here's hoping that Carpenter provides what we need opposite Ware.

I do like both players (Ware & Merriman) very much though and it still remains to be seen which will be the better player.

What Adam says make perfect sense. Ware did cause more negative plays that Merriman, and assuming Adam is right about the film he watched (a safe assumption), Ware seems just as good in the pass rushing department.

I like Ware a lot and think this season he'll really have a feel for the position that he lacked last season. I look for him to have a really big year... regardless of what Merriman does.

 

[bayarealightning]

I will say this, Merriman was the youngest player in the NFL last year, so I do not get where some people are saying that he cannot improve. Also, the neck injury that Priest Holmes sustained that might end his career was delivered by Merriman (I do not wish injuries on any player). On top of everything is he can change the game with his hits!

 

[Scotman]

I will say this, Merriman was the youngest player in the NFL last year, so I do not get where some people are saying that he cannot improve. Also, the neck injury that Priest Holmes sustained that might end his career was delivered by Merriman (I do not wish injuries on any player). On top of everything is he can change the game with his hits!

I'm with you as far as thinking Merriman can't improve. He should and most likely will. Causing an injury doesn't impress me though. Roy has done it several times and I think it detracts from the career, not adds. At least for me. All that said, Merriman is going to be very, very good. Almost as good as Ware. (Told you I was a complete homer)

 

[Doomsdayblitz]

Did you see the hit DWare put on M. Faulk against the Rams. That could very well have caused an injury. That game also showed a turning point w/Ware. He said himself that he had decided to just let it fly, and he had one of his best all around games against the Rams. He was all over the run game, making stops sideline to sideline. He made an incredible sack on the QB, after he had gotten up off the ground & chased him all the way to the sideline.

One thing that does need to be cleared up is that Ware was stronger, at least weight lifting wise, than Merriman at the beginning of the season. According to Street & Smith's Pro Football Draft Guide 2005, at the time of issue, which was after last year's Senior Bowl, Merriman benched 385 & Ware 430. Now, the mag also has Merriman's weight at 255, when he was assumed to be around 270 during the season. If that was training weight muscle, then maybe he closed on Ware, but I don't know. Also, in Ware bio from Troy St., he owned the school's record for not only the bench press, but also the squat lift, which was over 600 lbs. So, Ware is at least as strong as Merriman is those departments.

I just pray that Zimmerman sees the talent before him & gets more creative with it. He now has an excellent pass rusher in Ware, Carpenter, and Ayodele. Ayodele is a completely different story I want to get into later. Anyway, I love Ware, and all that he brings. To insinuate that somehow Merriman is more of a "beast" than Ware is ridiculous. He showed at the Rams game that he IS a beast once he figures out what he's supposed to do. Just watch, Merriman fans, just how much Ware turns it loose next year.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

I think the original poster is way off base. If you watch the tape you would not necessarily take Merriman. If you truly watched him, over half his sacks came on plays where he was completely unblocked...no one even accounted for him.

I don't think there was one sack by Ware where he was untouched. The Chargers had a much better 3-4 than we did, with multiple pass rushers to account for. We had one.

Put Ware in SD's defense, and I bet he would have had 5 more sacks than Merriman did. Put Merriman in Dallas' D, and he would have had fewer sacks than Ware did.

Merriman came in needing to be a final piece in the Chargers 3-4. Ware was the building block in Dallas. As the defensive weapons in Dallas mature, Ware will surpass Merriman's numbers.

 

[ConstantReboot]

I really wish that Ware will turn it on next year. But that is not for him to decide. You see, Zimmer didn't really used him well last year despite us moving towards a 3-4.

There was some situations where Zimmer had him play coverage while he blitzed some of our no-name linebackers such as Shanle. Now why would we have our best and most explosive passrusher be subjected to pass coverage?

Ware was most hampered by the defensive scheme. Ware was also forced into playing coverage. While Merriman all he had to do was get to the QB and get sacks. He wasn't placed into positions where he had to watch TEs and backs.

The Carolina and the Rams game showed Ware's true potential. He is just as good or he can be better than Merriman. That was where we told him to turn it lose if I'm not mistaken. If we allow him to do that, he can be the terror that we want him to be. But if we subject him to playing within the defensive scheme, or constantly play him into coverage, there is nothing else he can do but be the ordinary, average player that Zimmer wants him to be.

 

[AdamJT13]

I think the original poster is way off base. If you watch the tape you would not necessarily take Merriman. If you truly watched him, over half his sacks came on plays where he was completely unblocked...no one even accounted for him.

Merriman had only one sack when he was unblocked (or maybe 1.5 -- I can't find video of one of his half-sacks). But he had five sacks on plays when the quarterback held the ball and tried to run or scramble with it. He had only one sack when he actually beat an offensive tackle to get to the quarterback quickly.

Put Ware in SD's defense, and I bet he would have had 5 more sacks than Merriman did. Put Merriman in Dallas' D, and he would have had fewer sacks than Ware did.

I don't know if Ware would have had 15 sacks, but I have no doubt he would have had at least 10 sacks in San Diego's defense.