MM and the Importance of Coaching

StarOfGlory

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And how many nfl coaches have built a championship roster with one team and tBen built one with another team?

when Jimmie arrived in Miami Marino wash on the downside of his career…but he was a Miami legend making it near impossible for Johnson…
The only coach in the salary cap era that has taken two different teams to a Super Bowl is Andy Reid. Dick Vermeil did it once pre and once post. Bill Parcells, and Don Shula did it pre-salary cap.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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There’s always talk about Jimmy Johnson and the ‘90’s Cowboys. Of course, the roster was amazing and much of it was built pre-salary cap. JJ leaves and we win another Super Bowl. That’s how good that squad was, maybe one of the best teams ever assembled in the NFL.

It bears mentioning that JJ went to the Dolphins for 4 years and never won his division. He only had (1) 10 win season and had a losing record in the playoffs with them. By today’s standards, Marino was in his prime when JJ arrived (34, I think). It didn’t matter. Jerry Jones wasn’t far off base when he said that almost anyone could’ve coached those Dallas teams. We actually saw ‘anyone’ come in and win a SB.

The next time someone rags on MM, remember that there’s no substitute for talent on the field. The cap and the NFL’s desire for parity makes it very hard to sustain excellence, however you measure it. McVay won a SB a year ago. The Rams were horrible this year. Yeah, Stafford was out, but a few miles north, Mr. Irrelevant has led the 49’ers to the playoffs. McVay is supposed to be a boy wonder, and many here would dump MM for McVay in a second. Not sure it would make any difference, though.

Dog on Jones all you want, but he gets personnel. Too bad there’s a cap. Jerry is an owner that would pay the freight to field a SB contender every year.
there is a degree of truth to that. even for great QBs. they can't do it alone. but given those ingredients of good skill and talent can they take the team over the hump. coaching is important. Garrett had some talent ot work with and he wasted it. not saying it was superbowl ready, but it was good and he never really got over the hump. missed many opportunities, including one year being #1 seed. and then there is Bilicheck who had Brady and marginal talents (good talent but not great) and he won superbowls. there is not a lot of HOFers from the groups he took to superbowl winning many. good, great coaching makes a huge difference. Shanahan is doing it in SF, with a 7th round last pick of the draft kinda pick. he went to superbowl and came within minutes of winning it with Grapolo.....
 

JohnBoy

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This is why I have such mixed feelings about Jerry Jones. I've also read that he was instrumental in getting the salary cap implemented. Why do that when it should have been obvious that it would work directly against him and his future teams? Dallas was, and arguably has been all this time - the single most negatively-impacted team by the salary cap. Because few owners have the purse and will to pay an all-star cast like Jerry does.

Is it because he knew it was the Right Thing To Do?
 

lukin2006

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The only coach in the salary cap era that has taken two different t if he waams to a Super Bowl is Andy Reid. Dick Vermeil did it once pre and once post. Bill Parcells, and Don Shula did it pre-salary cap.
It's not easy to do. But as we are finding out a coach can be slowed by poor QB play. I would have liked to see what Johnson could have done if he was allowed to draft HIS own QB. Every coach you mentioned got to run with their own QB. Johnson's hands were tied by an aging Marino...
 

odog422

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This is why I have such mixed feelings about Jerry Jones. I've also read that he was instrumental in getting the salary cap implemented. Why do that when it should have been obvious that it would work directly against him and his future teams? Dallas was, and arguably has been all this time - the single most negatively-impacted team by the salary cap. Because few owners have the purse and will to pay an all-star cast like Jerry does.

Is it because he knew it was the Right Thing To Do?
No. He wanted to put a cap on what players could be paid. His success with Johnson and his ego took him right past the understanding that the team structured in the manner he wanted where he is the face of the franchise and gets all the credit - the way he has attempted to do it since Johnson except during the Parcells years - is a recipe for failure.
 

LovinItAll

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Sure he could. What he could not do was trade Dan Marino and bring in his guy to QB and do you think Marino would be happy with an offence that was a run first offence like Dallas was.

The bigger question is why MM teams are mentally and physically weak? Because teams that lack those to elements are teams that blow 17 and 14 point leads…The 90s team started with the Great Wall of Dallas...generally a collection of misfits that Johnson turned into probably the greatest offensive line of all-time…

The team was a mess when Johnson inherited the team, Johnson built them into a Super Bowl roster. MM inherited a talent roster and has 2 back to back 12 win season…but this is not a great 12 win team…starting Monday this team these coaches have the opportunity to some of us we are wrong…
Mentally and physically weak? I can’t have a conversation with someone who actually believes that.
 

LovinItAll

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there is a degree of truth to that. even for great QBs. they can't do it alone. but given those ingredients of good skill and talent can they take the team over the hump. coaching is important. Garrett had some talent ot work with and he wasted it. not saying it was superbowl ready, but it was good and he never really got over the hump. missed many opportunities, including one year being #1 seed. and then there is Bilicheck who had Brady and marginal talents (good talent but not great) and he won superbowls. there is not a lot of HOFers from the groups he took to superbowl winning many. good, great coaching makes a huge difference. Shanahan is doing it in SF, with a 7th round last pick of the draft kinda pick. he went to superbowl and came within minutes of winning it with Grapolo.....
To be clear, I never said coaching isn’t important. What I actually said was that a top tier coach might be worth a couple of regular season wins over an average coach. Once the playoffs arrive, I think coaching is much more important, but at the end of the day, the players have to execute. Dak suddenly becoming int happy isn’t a coaching issue. He’s had the same OC for years.

For almost their entire SB dynasty with Brady, the Pats played in a pathetic division that got them the #1 or #2 seed almost every year, which gave them a huge leg up in the playoffs. Plus they had Brady. When you have the GOAT at QB, you’re probably going to win a lot if you surround him with decent talent on his side of the ball and field a defense that can limit scoring from the opposing team.

My main point was that no coach is going to roll into Dallas and create a dynasty with this roster, which I think is good enough to win a SB if everything goes right, but not good enough to go on a SB run without an upgrade in talent.
 

LovinItAll

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No. He wanted to put a cap on what players could be paid. His success with Johnson and his ego took him right past the understanding that the team structured in the manner he wanted where he is the face of the franchise and gets all the credit - the way he has attempted to do it since Johnson except during the Parcells years - is a recipe for failure.
You are so underselling what Jones has done for the NFL that it’s ridiculous. The cap was the best thing for monetizing the league as a whole, but it has probably hurt Dallas more than almost any other team. Jones saw the big picture very early, and it’s fan friendly for 80% of the league. Not for us, though.
 

JoeKing

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There’s always talk about Jimmy Johnson and the ‘90’s Cowboys. Of course, the roster was amazing and much of it was built pre-salary cap. JJ leaves and we win another Super Bowl. That’s how good that squad was, maybe one of the best teams ever assembled in the NFL.

It bears mentioning that JJ went to the Dolphins for 4 years and never won his division. He only had (1) 10 win season and had a losing record in the playoffs with them. By today’s standards, Marino was in his prime when JJ arrived (34, I think). It didn’t matter. Jerry Jones wasn’t far off base when he said that almost anyone could’ve coached those Dallas teams. We actually saw ‘anyone’ come in and win a SB.

The next time someone rags on MM, remember that there’s no substitute for talent on the field. The cap and the NFL’s desire for parity makes it very hard to sustain excellence, however you measure it. McVay won a SB a year ago. The Rams were horrible this year. Yeah, Stafford was out, but a few miles north, Mr. Irrelevant has led the 49’ers to the playoffs. McVay is supposed to be a boy wonder, and many here would dump MM for McVay in a second. Not sure it would make any difference, though.

Dog on Jones all you want, but he gets personnel. Too bad there’s a cap. Jerry is an owner that would pay the freight to field a SB contender every year.
Coaches don't count toward the salary cap so that's how he gets personnel. For example, Quinn is being paid very well to remain our DC this season.
 
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There’s always talk about Jimmy Johnson and the ‘90’s Cowboys. Of course, the roster was amazing and much of it was built pre-salary cap. JJ leaves and we win another Super Bowl. That’s how good that squad was, maybe one of the best teams ever assembled in the NFL.

It bears mentioning that JJ went to the Dolphins for 4 years and never won his division. He only had (1) 10 win season and had a losing record in the playoffs with them. By today’s standards, Marino was in his prime when JJ arrived (34, I think). It didn’t matter. Jerry Jones wasn’t far off base when he said that almost anyone could’ve coached those Dallas teams. We actually saw ‘anyone’ come in and win a SB.

The next time someone rags on MM, remember that there’s no substitute for talent on the field. The cap and the NFL’s desire for parity makes it very hard to sustain excellence, however you measure it. McVay won a SB a year ago. The Rams were horrible this year. Yeah, Stafford was out, but a few miles north, Mr. Irrelevant has led the 49’ers to the playoffs. McVay is supposed to be a boy wonder, and many here would dump MM for McVay in a second. Not sure it would make any difference, though.

Dog on Jones all you want, but he gets personnel. Too bad there’s a cap. Jerry is an owner that would pay the freight to field a SB contender every year.

There’s always talk about Jimmy Johnson and the ‘90’s Cowboys. Of course, the roster was amazing and much of it was built pre-salary cap. JJ leaves and we win another Super Bowl. That’s how good that squad was, maybe one of the best teams ever assembled in the NFL.

It bears mentioning that JJ went to the Dolphins for 4 years and never won his division. He only had (1) 10 win season and had a losing record in the playoffs with them. By today’s standards, Marino was in his prime when JJ arrived (34, I think). It didn’t matter. Jerry Jones wasn’t far off base when he said that almost anyone could’ve coached those Dallas teams. We actually saw ‘anyone’ come in and win a SB.

The next time someone rags on MM, remember that there’s no substitute for talent on the field. The cap and the NFL’s desire for parity makes it very hard to sustain excellence, however you measure it. McVay won a SB a year ago. The Rams were horrible this year. Yeah, Stafford was out, but a few miles north, Mr. Irrelevant has led the 49’ers to the playoffs. McVay is supposed to be a boy wonder, and many here would dump MM for McVay in a second. Not sure it would make any difference, though.

Dog on Jones all you want, but he gets personnel. Too bad there’s a cap. Jerry is an owner that would pay the freight to field a SB contender every year.
Let me know when Jerry and company start investing in a real defense. Until then whoever the coach and QB are will never be contenders and they'll be run out of town eventually.
 

Bullflop

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No question but what astute coaching is a cornerstone of a team's success. It serves to make the most of the talent that management provides. Here's hoping that Mike McCarthy finds success in his coaching approach with the Cowboys this season and those yet to come. It's been said lately that his success and/or the lack of it may have a bearing on his future with this team. Of course, Jerry prefers to make statements that serve to encourage his players, fans and McCarthy, himself, to remain devoted to this team. Let's hope for MM and this team to make the most of the games ahead, with that constantly in mind. A supportive fanbase is the best way to encourage a winning determination from all involved with this team.
 
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plasticman

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There’s always talk about Jimmy Johnson and the ‘90’s Cowboys. Of course, the roster was amazing and much of it was built pre-salary cap. JJ leaves and we win another Super Bowl. That’s how good that squad was, maybe one of the best teams ever assembled in the NFL.

It bears mentioning that JJ went to the Dolphins for 4 years and never won his division. He only had (1) 10 win season and had a losing record in the playoffs with them. By today’s standards, Marino was in his prime when JJ arrived (34, I think). It didn’t matter. Jerry Jones wasn’t far off base when he said that almost anyone could’ve coached those Dallas teams. We actually saw ‘anyone’ come in and win a SB.

The next time someone rags on MM, remember that there’s no substitute for talent on the field. The cap and the NFL’s desire for parity makes it very hard to sustain excellence, however you measure it. McVay won a SB a year ago. The Rams were horrible this year. Yeah, Stafford was out, but a few miles north, Mr. Irrelevant has led the 49’ers to the playoffs. McVay is supposed to be a boy wonder, and many here would dump MM for McVay in a second. Not sure it would make any difference, though.

Dog on Jones all you want, but he gets personnel. Too bad there’s a cap. Jerry is an owner that would pay the freight to field a SB contender every year.
True, Jerry would buy a Super Bowl championship if he could and he's even perplexed as to why he can't.

That's because Jerry doesn't get it and he never will. Football is competition. It's one group working harder than the other in order create success. You can define success in this case as the ability to defeat their competition. At this level it takes dedication and commitment to being the best. This includes the the position of GM. It's a 24/7 kind of job, football is always on their mind.

To Jerry, it's a part time job. It's one of several things he is into. Jerry Jones is the "Bossman Fat" of GM's.
There’s always talk about Jimmy Johnson and the ‘90’s Cowboys. Of course, the roster was amazing and much of it was built pre-salary cap. JJ leaves and we win another Super Bowl. That’s how good that squad was, maybe one of the best teams ever assembled in the NFL.

It bears mentioning that JJ went to the Dolphins for 4 years and never won his division. He only had (1) 10 win season and had a losing record in the playoffs with them. By today’s standards, Marino was in his prime when JJ arrived (34, I think). It didn’t matter. Jerry Jones wasn’t far off base when he said that almost anyone could’ve coached those Dallas teams. We actually saw ‘anyone’ come in and win a SB.

The next time someone rags on MM, remember that there’s no substitute for talent on the field. The cap and the NFL’s desire for parity makes it very hard to sustain excellence, however you measure it. McVay won a SB a year ago. The Rams were horrible this year. Yeah, Stafford was out, but a few miles north, Mr. Irrelevant has led the 49’ers to the playoffs. McVay is supposed to be a boy wonder, and many here would dump MM for McVay in a second. Not sure it would make any difference, though.

Dog on Jones all you want, but he gets personnel. Too bad there’s a cap. Jerry is an owner that would pay the freight to field a SB contender every year.

Marino was in his prime went Jimmy came to the Dolphjins? He was in his 14th season and he was 35 years old! Jimmy wanted him out so he could start building fresh but Marino impeded that effort

In the ten seasons leading up to Jimmy's arrival, Shula and the Dolphins made the playoffs 4 times. Jimmy's team made the playoffs three out of the four years he was the HC. The team he left Dave Wannstedt went to the playoffs the following two season. That is five out of six seasons.

And you are cherry picking seasons. You don't mention that he never had a losing season as the Miami HC.
 

lukin2006

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Mentally and physically weak? I can’t have a conversation with someone who actually believes that.
You are free to prove me wrong…but this team is mentally weak? This team collapsed twice against inferior teams in the 4th quarter…blowing 14 and 17 point leads, looked terrible at Tennessee and looked like a CFL team against Washington…what are they?

even if you don’t have the most talent the thing good coaches can offer is making their team physically tougher and mentally tougher than their opponents…I see no indication that’s the case with this team. Instead we got Micah whining about reffing days before the biggest game of the year…he seems like he needs to toughen up…
 

lukin2006

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If Jimmy stays we win 4, maybe 5 super bowls in the 90s. That’s how good Jimmie was and that’s how far this organization has fallen since the 90s.

Barry Switzer walked into a perfect situation…
 

BoyzBlaster

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To say Marino was a shell of himself when Johnson arrived is a massive understatement. Look at what's happening to Belichek now when he can't find the right QB. That's how important that position is and how fine the margins are in the NFL.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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To be clear, I never said coaching isn’t important. What I actually said was that a top tier coach might be worth a couple of regular season wins over an average coach. Once the playoffs arrive, I think coaching is much more important, but at the end of the day, the players have to execute. Dak suddenly becoming int happy isn’t a coaching issue. He’s had the same OC for years.

For almost their entire SB dynasty with Brady, the Pats played in a pathetic division that got them the #1 or #2 seed almost every year, which gave them a huge leg up in the playoffs. Plus they had Brady. When you have the GOAT at QB, you’re probably going to win a lot if you surround him with decent talent on his side of the ball and field a defense that can limit scoring from the opposing team.

My main point was that no coach is going to roll into Dallas and create a dynasty with this roster, which I think is good enough to win a SB if everything goes right, but not good enough to go on a SB run without an upgrade in talent.
oh, I don't disagree. Jones boys will ruin any coach. the culture is toxic to championship. All Jerry cares about is money and thus no coach is going to find success here. as soon as we have some success, Jerry is upfront and center taking credit and he starts poking his head in the locker room, making the rounds on the radio and maximizing his bottom line. Even the great parcells quit on him
 

LovinItAll

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Let me know when Jerry and company start investing in a real defense. Until then whoever the coach and QB are will never be contenders and they'll be run out of town eventually.
Not sure what that had to do with my post, but okay.
 

LovinItAll

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To say Marino was a shell of himself when Johnson arrived is a massive understatement. Look at what's happening to Belichek now when he can't find the right QB. That's how important that position is and how fine the margins are in the NFL.
What? Marino had one of his best years the first year Jimmy was there.
 

LovinItAll

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True, Jerry would buy a Super Bowl championship if he could and he's even perplexed as to why he can't.

That's because Jerry doesn't get it and he never will. Football is competition. It's one group working harder than the other in order create success. You can define success in this case as the ability to defeat their competition. At this level it takes dedication and commitment to being the best. This includes the the position of GM. It's a 24/7 kind of job, football is always on their mind.

To Jerry, it's a part time job. It's one of several things he is into. Jerry Jones is the "Bossman Fat" of GM's.


Marino was in his prime went Jimmy came to the Dolphjins? He was in his 14th season and he was 35 years old! Jimmy wanted him out so he could start building fresh but Marino impeded that effort

In the ten seasons leading up to Jimmy's arrival, Shula and the Dolphins made the playoffs 4 times. Jimmy's team made the playoffs three out of the four years he was the HC. The team he left Dave Wannstedt went to the playoffs the following two season. That is five out of six seasons.

And you are cherry picking seasons. You don't mention that he never had a losing season as the Miami HC.
As I said in another post, Marino had one of his best years the first year Jimmy was there. He missed 2 games the second year or he would’ve put up great numbers.

He didn’t have a losing season, but he went 8-8 one year and got to 10 wins once. That’s not cherry picking. He wasn’t there long enough to cherry pick anything.
 
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